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In Reply to: RE: Once a pseudo skeptic...- posted by geoffkait on November 25, 2022 at 12:50:47
"It always comes down to your arguments, it must be psychological, it disobeys science, it can't be detected in a blind test. "
Your ability to dance around the fact that what one hears is partly what you know and see is remarkable, have you ever thought about why medical hearing tests never include a little red light to tell you when the tone is present or why the person running the test can't give you clues? This only tests your ability to detect the sound yes or no, not what you know or think or see. The ONLY way to determine exactly what you hear is when you remove all the "non-auditory" information.
While you may think of blind testing akin to a gruesome non-reversible medical procedure, it simple means what you see and know tells you nothing about which of two cases you are hearing.
The fact that when you spend money on an aftermarket trinket, that this in it self is a powerful motivator to hear an improvement IS psychological , have you ever wondered why often what was a dramatic improvement with a new cable, diminishes to slight or undetectable when tested blind?
That last part is where i became interested, i have built loudspeakers my whole life (well i made the first cabinet in 7th grade) and have a company with my name on it now. While the easiest place to grow with a new technology was was in commercial sound where large scale sound is the most difficult, my interest has been hifi since i heard sound coming from a heathkit speaker at my grampa's.
I pressed you for details because the psychology is powerful, if you spent a lot of time or money on building new speakers, you are incredibly inclined to hear the good in it.....and ignore the bad, maybe even shape your choice of music around what sounded good.
All that is fine if they are your speakers but when you have to design speakers for other peoples choice of music and situations, one has to focus on the things that are universal and audible as an improvement in a blind test or side by side with other choices.
You said "Science used embrace curiosity and investigation", someone on line made a Wiki entry for me which is reasonably accurate, does what you said describe what i do as an inventor?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Danley
Follow Ups:
Any test including a carefully controlled blind test can have problems, including undetected ones. There are lots of reasons why a test can have negative results, even when the tester is very thorough and has lots of experience. But what does have meaning are the cumulative results of many tests in many different systems by different listeners.
No need to blow your own horn here, we appreciate what an Appeal to Authority is. If credentials or experience were capable of winning arguments then any yutz on the street could simply claim, "I have 40 years of experience in this hobby therefore I must be right." That pretty well sums up your arguments in the present discussion.
"No need to blow your own horn here, we appreciate what an Appeal to Authority is"
The reason i mentioned my background at the end of the conversation rather then the beginning was to illustrate that while i began as a DIY'r, most of my life turned into doing R&D in areas where there were no solutions and my job some of the time was developing new things and new types of transducers, for example these;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=669AcEBpdsY
"Any test including a carefully controlled blind test can have problems, including undetected ones. There are lots of reasons why a test can have negative results, even when the tester is very thorough and has lots of experience."
Absolutely true, just like medical or other tests, our difference seems to be that you discount what measurements and controlled testing CAN tell you.
You seem to totally gloss over the FACT that what we perceive is partly what we know, see and believe as well as the sound going into the holes on the sides of your head and are unaware of (or is it depend on?) the power of placebo even in audio.
Do you actually design anything technical or just market stuff or do you want to end this here?
We've already talked about this education and experience obsession of yours a couple of times. Apparently you have run completely out of ammo. If you can't come up with any evidence to support your position I hereby declare myself the winner. You cannot win the argument by constantly challenging my experience and education. Which, as it happens, I'm quite confident is superior to yours.
Beyond using #12 gauge wires, speaker wires makes no difference. RCA high impedance wires do make a slight difference. I use Bluejeans low capacitance.
I'm way ahead of you. You have drawn the wrong conclusions. Better luck in the future.
Speaker wires are low impedance, higher voltage and short in length as compared to phono wires. I hear a minor difference in phono wires and not sure if the capacitance plays a larger factor. As for speaker wires of about 14ga in pure copper, I think the placebo effect is larger than the different speaker cables true sound effect.
Try reversing the direction of speaker cables sometime. That should be pretty obvious.Limitations in any audio system can sometimes limit that system's ability to reveal what's going on with cables. Negative results can be misleading. Testing for differences in audio are not at all like taste tests or pharmaceutical tests in that there is an entire system in audio tests between the thing being tested and the listener. A lot of things can go wrong. In audio tests it's probably never placebo, always an error in the system somewhere.
Edits: 01/12/23
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