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In Reply to: RE: Agree and disagree posted by telackey on September 02, 2011 at 09:35:15
ntCut-Throat
Follow Ups:
*sigh*
Look, I am not saying you don't have a perfectly good opinion about the DAC, but I would suggest that you listen a bit to what you are saying.
So far anyone that disagrees about the DAC:
1) Can't tell the difference between lossless and MP3.
2) Must have a lousy system incapable of resolving differences.
3) Is not even an audiophile to begin with.
It isn't the opinion of not liking the DAC that I object to, it is the put-downs of fellow "inmates" that have different opinions.
That, and since I personally think the DAC is fine, I don't like the idea of advising people to spend money they may not need to spend on another DAC as a necessity. They may hear it and agree with you and run out and order one the next day, and that is all good. I'd just hate for people to spend money on something so that they can be an audiophile, since apparently no real audiophile would use the internal one.
I initially used the S/Box with the internal DAC, but ultimately found it lacked that certain something. I ended up with a Havana, which I feel is better, especially in the midrange.
The internal DAC wasn't terrible by any means though. Perhaps in some systems there is better synergy than mine (mid-fi, poor family man).
Might think about a Firestone Bravo for jitter reduction at some future point.
Given my observation that the internal DAC of either is unsatisfactory, the only advantage of the SQT is the fact that it will pass 24/96 files. The Sonos will only allow 16/48. The ease of using Sonos is a plus. The cost and quality of 24/96 downloads out there makes the Sonos my choice.
I said in my post that "They may listen to compressed MP3" --- Not that they did for sure and could not hear a difference between lossless and MP3 --- You read that into what I posted.The problem is that some folks buy a Squeezebox touch, plug it in based on that they have heard that the internal DAC is a Super Performer and then diss the SBT because it sounds terrible. I happen to agree that it sounds terrible with the internal DAC.
There are a lot of Non-Audiophiles that purchase an SBT and use Compressed MP3s on a regular basis. They most always give the internal DAC of the SBT a thumbs up and say that an external DAC is not needed. And that is what I was referring to. Audiophiles will not appreciate the internal DAC at all.
Cut-Throat
Edits: 09/02/11 09/02/11 09/02/11
> > And that is what I was referring to. Audiophiles will not appreciate
> > the internal DAC at all.I made a conscious decision to turn in my audiophile badge years ago, in part thanks to the interminable one-upmanship, but I agree with Telackey's basic premise: a user needs to decide an issue like this for themselves.
Your blanket statement as to what people will and won't appreciate does contain a hint of presumptive arrogance.
I've had a Touch since they came out 18 months ago and sold my Lavry DAC after several weeks of side-by-side, synced and level-matched comparison. I found I couldn't reliably tell the difference without checking the position of the input selector switch. Perhaps that's due to my tin ear, mediocre system or whatever other inferiority you need to assign, but I'm listening to the Tokyo String Quartet play Beethoven's Op. 95 at this moment with perfect satisfaction.
Others are certainly free to purchase whatever devices they need to make their system work for them, but I think the primary point is that new users should give things a try before deciding a priori that an extra $500, $1,000 or more must be spent because some guy on the internet told them so.
Edits: 09/03/11
I did not make a "blanket statement as to what people will and won't appreciate". I said "Audiophiles". And since you have "made a conscious decision to turn in your audiophile badge years ago", I was not speaking to you.
It is my opinion that if someone that has not turned in their Audiophile Badge and bought an SBT and expected it to sound just as good as a $1,000 DAC, just because a guy on the internet told him so, he would be quite disappointed.
And I'll also say to any Audiophile, if they buy an SBT, try it out first and see if you like it without a DAC first before you buy one. That is exactly what I did.
Again, the SBT has a plethora of people using it. From kids in College dorms with compressed MP3 Files to very finicky audiophiles. And then, there are people like you somewhere in the middle.
I was speaking to Audiophiles. And the finicky Audiophiles that I know that use the SBT, can't stand the internal built in DAC.
Cut-Throat
And my point, too.
You claimed to speak for "all audiophiles". That's still presumptuous.
> > And I'll also say to any Audiophile, if they buy an SBT, try it
> > out first and see if you like it...
But that's not what you said in the earlier posts. You simply declared the device's built-in DAC unacceptable. You said, without caveat, "Audiophiles will not appreciate the internal DAC at all." Period.
By the way, just because I don't enjoy the seemingly inherent braggadocio of audiophilia doesn't mean I'm not a finicky listener. I hear differences in mike types and positions, mixing and effect choices and so on (and often wish different choices had been made by those on the recording side). However, I'm ultimately listening to music, not equipment. I didn't give up my finicky listener badge, just the one for audiophia nervosa.
If you like the sound of the Touch's dac, more power to you. Isn't what this hobby is all about, satisfaction?
Mike, what I infer from the posts above is that true audiophiles will not be satisfied with the sound of the built in DAC. Since they need satisfaction in this hobby, true audiophiles will go for external DAC. They will not be satisfied for too long and then go for better DACs. I dont think true audiophiles can be satisfied with built in stuff.
Cheers
Bill
"They will not be satisfied for too long and then go for better DACs. I dont think true audiophiles can be satisfied with built in stuff."
Guess I must be a "true" audiophile since I wasn't happy with the touch internal DAC. On the other hand John Swenson says if you remove it's output coupling capacitors it sounds much better. So if I bought another one and did that and liked it, then what? Would I be an untrue audiophile? A tramp listener?
Speaking for myself, I just want good sound and haven't found many givens along the way. Even what constitutes good sound. Couple that with 'system synergy' and recommendations need to be taken with humongous grains of salt. One advantage, perhaps the main one of having a bunch of boxes in the signal chain is that it increases the opportunities to optimize the aspects that are especially important to a particular user, even if their actual nature is obscure. But then there are downsides too...
Fun stuff!
Rick
"Mike, what I infer from the posts above is that true audiophiles will not be satisfied with the sound of the built in DAC. Since they need satisfaction in this hobby, true audiophiles will go for external DAC. They will not be satisfied for too long and then go for better DACs. I dont think true audiophiles can be satisfied with built in stuff."
It's more likely that true audiophools will never be satisfied, period.
"The world is a panorama of endless movement, a vast assemblage of rainbow colours. If upon seeing it, people think that they have really attained something permanent, or become intoxicated with the colours, they will make a great mistake. People are attracted to minute portions of this earth, and embracing them, seek the path of self-gratification. But long before they attain satisfaction, those minute portions, that procession of colours, vanish into nothingness, leaving them in endless frustration and lamentation like blind, headless demons. This is not a decree of the supreme consciousness; it is the law of the universe."
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Tony
There are so many Sri Sri guys in India. There are also Swamies and Swaminies. Sai Babas and such. Magicians. Very difficult to sieve out the good ones. I would follow Swami Vivekananda. After all he mesmerised great thinkers with his knowledge, in Chicago, in 1893.Died in his thirties.
And then there was Osho of Pune who almost captured Seattle with his 93 Rolls Royce. When he needed them, his American followers who gave him all these cars, were missing.
Empire of The Soul by Paul William Roberts is a good read.
Best Wishes
Bill
There is a great magician called P.C.Sarkar.
I posted the quote because I believed the content was relevant. I do not blindly follow authority.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Audiophiles 'should' accept neither the Squeeze thing nor the Sonos from their internal DACs. I know I won't, especially if it's hooked to my main audio rig.
I haven't tested the Cambridge Audio's internal DAC but it will run along the same lines. It should be better then those mentioned above but still far away from an audiophile analogue output.
AP
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