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In Reply to: RE: But I can't hear the fan in my MAC posted by fmak on August 17, 2014 at 07:44:43
I thought your link would show how the fan changed the actual audio output of the Mac, a measurement which would be relevant to your claim of "audibility."
Instead you post a link which shows that an operating electric fan has an associated electrical and magnetic field.
Whoa. Now there's a breakthrough.
You do understand how electric motors work? Can you explain how one could work without creating an electrical and magnetic field?
More to the point, can you show us how this fan changed the audio signal coming from the Mac? If the fan audibly changes the "sound" of the audio output, surely there must be a measurable change to the audio output itself.
Follow Ups:
"If the fan audibly changes the "sound" of the audio output, surely there must be a measurable change to the audio output itself."Not to be a nit, and I agree with what you say, but the fan still could be effecting something else other than the audio output that is effecting the sound. Think of a silent fan, then think of how it would effect the sound traveling through it - as an example of the audio output not changing but the perceived sound being different.
If it "sounds" different then the measurements at the listening position must be different otherwise something within the listener himself is different.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
Edits: 08/21/14
but we're talking about a cooling fan inside a Macintosh computer. Presumably the speakers are not also inside the Mac so any acoustic effects the fan may have on the speakers should be pretty minimal. Now if we are talking about the Mac's built in speakers then the fan will be the least of your worries!
JE
That was just an obvious example. A fan being on could require a higher current draw, add noise on the power line or otherwise effect other devices outside the PC case in such a way that they create more noise and effect the perceived sound without changing the audio output.Point is it is not good enough to just measure the audio output if a difference is heard.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
Edits: 08/21/14
Fair enough, but now I think we are conflating changes to the electrical waveform and changes to the acoustical environment. Both can have significant effects on what we hear, but I think it's best to debate the two issues separately.
JE
How jaundiced!
How completely unable to respond to the issues!
JE
"If the fan audibly changes the "sound" of the audio output, surely there must be a measurable change to the audio output itself."
Sadly you will never be able to understand. Maybe you are lucky though. They do say ignorance is bliss...
May I suggest... For all your audio needs... Please see below.
"Sadly you will never be able to understand." Understand what, exactly?
"Maybe you are lucky though." I must be. I have a PC based system that sounds simply terrific and it plugged together like Legos. A far cry from many of the poor martyrs who post here year after year and still aren't happy with what they've got.
"They do say ignorance is bliss..." Is that why the believers in magical SATA cables and "USB filters" never want to post any objective measurements of their latest and greatest "night and day" differences?
By the way, your link is broken.
JE
"never want to post any objective measurements"
There will never be agreement that measurement do not always correlate with listening. I think the mind is more powerful than you will ever understand. Humans are complex, test equipment is simple in comparison.
"Humans are complex, test equipment is simple in comparison."
You are correct. For example, humans can imagine and believe in things that do not exist. Test equipment could never do that. In fact, that's kind of why we keep the test equipment around.
JE
By the way, did you see this one? The fun begins at about 1:30 in.
Let me ask you a question JE:
If I notice a 4% CPU activity difference between 2 bit perfect USB drivers, would this be enough to substantiate my claim that there is a big difference in sound between the two drivers?
of usb dacs? Or what?
If dacs, there is probably a difference. If anything else, then it may be down to the setup.
Please clarify and say what you hear.
2 USB DAC drivers. I don't want to get more specific as it would spoil my next review at AS. I was just interested in JE's opinion.
Seems like even fmak has issues with your hypothetical.
As for me, I could not care less what your PC does to create music. For me, as ever, the true measure of what is going on is a difference in the audio output of your PC.
Why is this so hard to grasp?
My position, as always, has been that PCs with identical outputs should sound the same, and for PCs to sound different they should have different outputs. There is no magic here. I'm not trying to spring any traps on anyone. I simply cannot understand how there can be "night and day" differences between PCs that have identical outputs.
Increased computer activity increases noise EMF, RFI that isn't being measured at the computer output, but does effect the sound of the DAC. There could be number of reasons for this.
The only thing I don't understand about you is why you delight in arguing the same points over and over in a forum that largely doesn't accept your position. Sure, you will find some Hydrogen Audio types here, but audiophiles like to approach things by careful listening. Something that you obviously don't do very well or enjoy doing.
And why do you refer to some inmates as "poor martyrs" just because they enjoy exploring areas of computer audio that don't interest you? Your idea that they are not enjoying themselves is nonsense given that this is an enthusiast forum.
I am still waiting patiently for you to contribute something meaningful to help us improve our systems. Your "religious belief" is sadly not enough for me.
"I am still waiting patiently for you to contribute something meaningful to help us improve our systems. Your "religious belief" is sadly not enough for me."
I'm not the one advising people to spend hundreds of dollars on products that have no demonstrable effect on the output of my system.
How do you live with yourself?
JE
I'm a tortured soul. Please allow me to have redemption.
You're a funny guy.
"Please allow me to have redemption."
With pleasure!
"You're a funny guy."
Are we quoting Martin Scorsese films now?
Mercman, I don't want to fight with you. Truly, I don't want to fight with anyone on this forum. On the other hand, neither am I willing to drink the Kool-Aid that seems so prevalent here and accept that what I hear coming out of my speakers is some sort of magic. It's an electrical waveform until it gets to my speakers at which point it becomes an acoustic waveform. If you're going to tell me that whatever it is makes a difference to the sound, then you better be ready to show me that there is a difference to the waveform, either electrical or acoustic. That's all I ask.
JE
JE,
Here is an article at AudioStream from John Swenson. There are 2 more articles by him you should read as well. This might prove interesting to you concerning our previous discussion.
I read that article last year when it first came out. Gosh! Mr. Swenson makes it seem miraculous that computers can work at all, let alone play music. It would have been nice if he had included some data to give the reader an idea of the scale and the scope of the issues he is talking about.
I'm curious. If computers really are the infernal, intractable pots of poison you seem to think they are, why do you even bother with them? Do you get any pleasure at all from PC playback?
Computers do work well for music. But, as John pointed out, there are issues that can and do degrade our music. Enthusiasts recognize this and try to lessen these issues.
Given that most people here can't measure anything, let alone complex problems that well educated designers, engineers, and physicists can't totally explain, you leave no room for any discussion given your testing requirements.
Quite honestly, as I have pointed out many times to you, you waste your time here. No one can satisfy your requirements, so why do you bother?
"most people here can't measure anything, let alone complex problems that well educated designers, engineers, and physicists can't totally explain"
Insightful statement Steve...
We humans seem driven to 'explain' things even if we have to make up the answers. Unlearning that is a crucial step towards becoming a successful Scientist, Engineer or Technician. Knowing what you don't know is knowing far more than most that "know", you know?
I also must admit that I have little patience with "labelers". The folks (not just audiophiles by any means) who believe that knowing a putative name for something means that they understand it. Mmmm, "tube" good, "mass market" bad...
Humans just don't meet Spec. After-all how could we, we ARE the mass market.
Rick
"But, as John pointed out, there are issues that can and do degrade our music."
Actually, he did no such thing. He speculated about possible issues and made some claims, but he didn't demonstrate, much less prove, anything.
Now campfire ghost stories are all well and good. (I can imagine several of the inmates here, huddled about the fire, gasping in horror as JS weaves his Tale of Terror.) However, ghost stories are not proof of anything. As I said before, I'd like some notion of the actual scale of the issues JS is raising. Are they -20dB down (Yikes!) or are they -120dB down (who cares?).
"you waste your time here" Actually, I'm the only one qualified to judge whether or not I am wasting my time. However, if my posts are wasting your time then please feel free to ignore them. If this is your forum then go ahead and ban me. However, if this is a public forum then get used to the idea that while you are free to make your claims in the agora others are equally free to challenge them.
JE
"I'm the only one qualified to judge whether or not I am wasting my time."
As was already stated we can judge whether you are wasting our time...
Something for you to ponder... How do you know unequivocally that you concept or testing or measurements is the correct path? Prove this...
What if one's hearing and the human experience was actually the way to find the audio truth???
And you are just full of hot air???
Prove this wrong... Until you can do this, maybe you can stop asking for testing in every thread...
If this was a religious discussion you should not bombard people who worship Allah, with you demands to believe in Jesus...
At least there, a cool $1,000,000 is waiting for you, still unclaimed after all these years.
That ought to be a walk in the park - now for the hard part: try to coax a meaningful, satisfactory explanation out of Cauliflower Ear, why he thinks that:
- the test he linked to is relevant to the matters discussed;
- the result, whether positive or negative, achieved by YOU, on your system with your ears, has any meaning for HIM personally, or is relevant for pretty much anyone or anything else.
Something tells me that "I'm currently out of toilet paper, so I'm gonna print out those results, and use as directed" is as close as you're going to get.
"What if one's hearing and the human experience was actually the way to find the audio truth???"
"Prove this wrong... Until you can do this, maybe you can stop asking for testing in every thread..."
Go to the link below and download the Audio Diffmaker. On the same page is a link to a different page full of "dyf" files. Go to that page and find the "Listener Challenge" which is made up of seven pairs of dyf files, labeled "Test 1" through "Test 7." You can download any or all of these but after 1 or 2 you should get the idea pretty quickly. Note also, that when playing a dyf file, ignore the tempting looking "Load" button and instead go to the menu bar and use the "Dyf File Sets" menu to load the files.
Fire up the test! Click on play for the alternate tracks to audition them (each is roughly ten seconds long) then use the "extract" button to extract the difference between the two tracks and then play it back.
I'm answering you honestly, I ask you to take the challenge honestly. No subjecting the tracks to machine analysis. No playback at levels you would not ordinarily listen at. Just kick back, enjoy the lullaby as you would any piece of fine music and see if you can spot the difference between them. The Audio Diffmaker can find it. Can you?
My understanding, though I can't cite a source, is that the difference is mixed in at about -60dB. Listening to the extracted difference makes that seem about right. For the most part, it's pretty hard to hear, isn't it? This is why I don't really care that much about "issues" that are more than -100dB down, and why I find it amazing that people claim they make huge differences to the sound of their systems.
YMMV and All the Best!
JE
. . . I'm the only one qualified to judge whether or not I am wasting my time.
This is true but, by the same token, I'm the only one qualified to judge whether you're wasting mine. The answer is yes because your approach is not sceptical (which is fine) but Philistine, i.e. ill-informed and irritatingly self-serving.
You bang on as if the issues JS was discussing were exotic, away-with-the-fairies stuff that no-one had ever encountered before and had credibility in audio circles such as AA only because participants (excepting you of course) are too naive to ask what you deem to be clever questions.
On the contrary, though he explains his points unusually well, they are familiar enough even to people who are (or, in my case, were) even peripherally involved in the minutiae of electronic design in the instrumentation field.
I first became involved with DACs over 40 years ago though (obviously) not in the audio sector. Nothing JS describes runs counter to my preliminary experiences way back then or to my somewhat wider exposure since.
So, instead of lecturing the rest of us on how dumb we are, why not tootle off, do some reading on the issues and come back when you have a bit more understanding and perhaps a more positive contribution to make?
Otherwise, you risk losing your credibility with some stray dog from Hydrogen Audio - who has no tools at his disposal to even repeat the experiment, let alone interpret the results.
Hey, feel free to ignore my posts. My nick is pretty distinctive so it should be no surprise to you if you click on something I've posted.
With regard to JS's articles, my complaint is that he never ties his theories to reality. For example, there is a lot of hand waving about jitter. At one point he says: "The spectrum of this noise and jitter has a VERY strong component at either 1KHz or 8KHz, both of which are directly in the audio range." I'm not saying this is untrue, but I am asking just how much jitter and noise are we talking about here? Is this something to worry about or can it be ignored? JS never tells us. "VERY strong" is not data. "VERY strong" is a value judgment. Why am I a bad guy for wanting to see some data so I can make my own value judgment? How is asking for some data "lecturing the rest of us on how dumb we are?" Read the comments to JS's articles. I'm not the only one who was dissatisfied with them. I'll happily concede that JS's articles raise interesting engineering questions. What I want to know is whether or to what extent those questions have been answered by current technology. Oddly enough, whenever I read a review of a current component that includes a jitter and noise measurement, the jitter and noise levels always seem to be vanishingly low. Where are these lions and tigers and bears I'm supposed to worry about? Has current engineering extirpated them?
If the interior of my PC is the blasted moonscape JS and others on this forum seem to think it is, how come beautiful music comes out of it when I turn it on? For that matter, why does it even turn on?
What's your idea of a "more positive contribution?" Sucking up to the inmates who post tales of magical SATA cables or $60 a piece thimbles? Perhaps my skepticism is a positive contribution to this forum. No one should get too complacent. People should be ready to defend their positions. Lord knows I've done enough of that since I started posting here.
JE
I guess you need proof that no one here can give you. Not even John Swenson.
I guess the best thing for me to is ignore your posts.
Adios
NT
that's all you are good for!
Seems to me the only point for your post starting this thread was to troll the Mac users in this forum. You certainly got the fuss you were looking for! Still, after throwing that metaphorical sucker punch, it is disingenuous for you now to complain that people are hitting back.
,,, deaf clueless morons, whose list of priorities should have learning to wipe their own ass at the very top, at #1 - way before learning to post anything useful, related to computer audio, on a web forum.
You are able to understand the above, don't you? If not, place acquiring that ability as #2 on your list of priorities.
I'm sure it'll reach the other remaining ones, too.
I suppose that's easier than explaining how a fan that is not turning might introduce noise into a system.
And a bit of 'name calling' to boot! :-)
You might want to put getting some help with your anger issues on your list of priorities.
He just wants to shit here, that's all - and he does, with unfortunate certainty. Like a shitting clockwork, if there was such a thing.
Shitting Time :
A quantity of time in which one reads as he/she shits. It is a quantifier of how long a book is, and how long it takes to read. Most books take about 5 or 6 shits to read, based on an average shitting time of 35 minutes.
A Clockwork Orange is a good book, but it's really hard to read, it took me 8 sessions of pure shitting time to understand it.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
I wonder why Mercman asked for his opinion on usb drivers.
"I wonder why Mercman asked for his opinion on usb drivers."
Just an exercise I guess, hoping beyond hope for some though outside his closed little box. Even reading JS articles will make no difference at all.
You can't teach an old dog new tricks... I guess we need an appropriate saying for deaf dogs also...
The bit output is the same for either driver, but they sound different. In JE's world, they sound the same to him since he can't measure it.
Edits: 08/19/14
Is it surprising that they sound different if they are different dacs?
But 4% more cpu load is very significant.
My audio PC uses 2-3% max playing.
"Is it surprising that they sound different if they are different dacs?"
Maybe you think the best way to compare two drivers audibility in a valid manner is best accomplished without removing the hardware variable. I doubt many in this modern age besides you would also choose that route.
This is the unrealistic mission perceived by computer guys.
Actually no this is the standard technique common among experimenters wishing to make the data easier to analyze. Completely doable in this instance.
What makes you think these things you are hearing, if indeed they are being heard, can't be can't be quantified via some sort of measurement?
Edits: 08/19/14
history of audio replay.
"history of audio replay."
At best, that was an entirely incoherent response.
to you but coherent to those who know and are interested in audio and not just computers.
Lol! I suppose you think this describes you. Nope, pretty much makes zero sense as an answer to my question.
Thanks, I am interested in computers as a tool for audio. You are interested in audio as a sideline to computers.
I agree.
If you make stuff up, chant it to yourself yourself over and over for long enough then eventually it will come true. Must be like watching the boat ride in willy wonka up in there. Maybe I should introduce you to my ex.
Perfectly appropriate.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
nt
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