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New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other?

64.129.152.158

I've got max $2K to spend on 2-channel pre + power amp for used 3.6Rs. I've researched the brands at the lower end of higher fi, and those seem to be the main options if I want to run the speakers at around 400 wpc in separates.

If you were me, which would you get, and why?

- Parasound 2100 + 2250, or
- NAD C165 + C275
- Or other? I looked at the Vincent line, but I want a remote.

Before replying, please keep in mind:

- Yes, I know used gear is a LOT cheaper. I've looked. Haven't seen these around, and I'm leery of used gear without transferable warranties.
- Yes, I know Maggies deserve way better amplification. I've got $2K now. It is what it is.
- Yes, I know purist pre-amps shouldn't have stuff like bass and treble controls. I want them, and a remote, too.

Thanks for putting up with my n00b Q's. You guys were helpful in explaining the differences between integrateds vs. separates, in the same family. I'm currently running the 3.6Rs with a rack PA power amp. For a variety of reasons, it's time to get a real amp system.

Any other online dealers you'd recommend besides Audio Advisor or Spearit Sound?

I'd like to buy an amp rig just once, if humanly possible. But I understand the gear chase ... I've been in electric guitars and amps for a decade.

Thanks -

=K

Follow Ups:

Update: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - K-wey 08:56:53 05/17/12 (0)
Thought I'd post an update, since everyone here had replied at length.

I ended up with a Parasound 2100 + 2250 combo (clean and used/ refurb)bought at about 30% off street retail from various boards and listings.

Noticeable difference in the power and smoothness of the bass lines, compared to the 450 wpc rack PA power amp I'd been using. I also got to understand how a decent pre-amp can put the music back in, versus running the CD player straight into a power amp. I was pleasantly surprised at how transparent the 2100 is.

Upgrades on the way include some (clean, used, cheap) Anti-Cables and some (clean, used, cheap) Mogami interconnects. Man, I love shopping the used-gear boards.

Thanks for all your comments and color. Feeling like I could stop here on the gear merry-go-round ... Yeah right!

=K
Update - - K-wey 07:47:11 05/04/12 (1)
Thanks, everyone. I've found a Parasound 2100 clean and used so that will be coming next week. Freed up a few bucks in the budget, too.

On to power amps. Did we determine that the Maggie 3.6R can dip down to 1.6 ohms sometimes?

Some thoughts: I hear you guys on the Para Halo A21. Picky question: Any chance I could get it with a black faceplate? Any ideas on where else to look to see if an A21 appears somewhere, refurb or used?

Interesting hybrids for sale, in my budget: I saw a Butler Audio TDB 2250 for sale used on another board; someone posted to its thread that it's a great idea for Magnepans.

Or there's Vincent Audio SP-331, another tube/SS hybrid. My only concern here is getting it serviced, if it ever needs it in the years ahead.

Thanks for the continuing discussion here; I'm making some progress. But I have reluctantly concluded that I'll probably end up doing some of the try-and-sell-and-trade thing. I did that for years in the guitars-n-amp gear world, and eventually ended up with a great rig that works for me.

As for the money churn, well, I just say that I learned a lot and had a pretty good time...

=K
- RE: Update - - pictureguy 14:12:52 05/04/12 (0)
  No, 'we' didn't determine the 3.6 drops to 1.6 ohms. The lowest impedance measured by stereophile was 3.3 ohms.
  However, this is not all that important. The PHASE data is far more important and at this, the speaker is very benign. ANY good quality amp will be a good electrical match, including most tube gear with enough grunt. Your listening habits will determine just how much power you need, so keep in mind power recommendations are just that....opinion.
  Working in your favor, at least for power/sensitivity is the fact that Maggies are line source which falls off in level slower than a regular box while coupling to a room.....maybe better isn't quite the right word?
  With my 1.6s? I've never measured above maybe 10 or 12 vac which is not all that much rms power, even though the peaks will be substantially higher on dynamic recordings.
  I have a 500x2 'd' amp so I doubt power is a problem....
  
  Happy listening:
  Too much is never enough
  - http://www.stereophile.com/content/magnepan-magneplanar-mg36 (Open in New Window)
RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - russ69 12:06:39 05/03/12 (2)
I'm with JBen on this one. I like the Parasound 2100 preamp, good value, good sound. I also agree you are cutting the amp short with a Parasound 2250. The A21 is WAY better than most and worth the extra money. You'll just be buying twice if you try to cut the amp budget too short. With that in mind I would give a Emotiva a try but only if your budget just can't get you into an A21.
- RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - pictureguy 14:15:01 05/04/12 (1)
  For the OPs 2large budget, how about a Krell integrated?
  Heard the 400xi with 3.6s many years ago and it was NICE. Ran warm, but what would you expect with lot's-o-class 'a' circuitry?
  
  Too much is never enough
  - RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - nooshinjohn 21:30:22 05/04/12 (0)
    Sunfire 325/2 and a Classic Tube pre.
    
    My MG-20's sound stunning with the Sunfire combo, and they are not even set up properly.
RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - Coldwarvet 10:15:47 05/03/12 (0)
AA had "b stock" Halo A-21s last year for 1800 plus change, shipped. Full five year warranty for "factory reconditioned" units. I've been using mine with my modded IIIA units, and really can't complain a bit. PLENTY of power, and a nice sound.
I used to use a Perreaux 3150 with these, and the Halo sounds a lot better. I've also bi-amped these with a modded Dynaco ST-70 on the MID/Ribbons, which sounded very good. Right now, I'm just running the A-21 and happy.

Edits: 05/03/12
RE: or other? - gentlegiantfan 04:40:17 04/28/12 (0)
Here's another thumbs up for the Emotiva gear. Let me say that I have excellent ears but lack the vast experience of diversity with gear that some guys here have. Some guys change gear like they change socks; experimenting, listening for subtle changes, notating, comparing, analyzing, and that's all ok ... it's what they are into. I'm not into the hobby at that level because my temperament and budget don't allow for it.

Before anyone gets offended let me also say that I am very thankful for hobbyists like that and forums like this ... it makes my enjoyment much easier and less expensive to rely on their advice and experience. I suspect that, at least in the budget aspect, you and I are in a similar place. While a lot of "good" audio gear can be bought, tried and re-sold if personally disliked relatively inexpensively the costs of doing so can become substantial after a couple of times.

I have had the XPA-2 stereo power amp driving my 3.6Rs for just over 2 years now. It has performed flawlessly in every regard without a single hitch. My only complaint is that at 76 pounds it has no rack handles ... but since I don't swap gear like I change socks it's really not much of a problem.

The USP-1 has been driving the XPA-2 for about a year and again, not a single hitch. It has a very nice MM / MC phono stage and I listen to a lot of vinyl. At 1st I missed not having tone controls, especially listening to vinyl, but not so much anymore. I just relax and listen to the music instead of worrying about it. A balance control, on the other hand, can be a handy, quick & convenient diagnostic tool, but I've only wanted one, maybe twice, in the last year.

The long & the short of it, IHMO is that the Emotiva gear is hard to beat on a bang-for-the-buck basis. You get brand new stuff with a 5 year warranty, save $700-800 of your budget and get 30 days to try it out. Sure, some day I hope to try one of Roger Sanders Maggie amps, or a Pass Labs or a Classe' or? But for now, I'm happy and I get to continue living indoors and eating!
RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - HpW 00:37:58 04/28/12 (0)
If you have the chance to get / listen any full tube amp (100W or more) just do this... you will surprised what the maggies will bring to you in terms of a more opened sound-stage.

Just my 2 cents

Hp
RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - K-wey 13:22:59 04/27/12 (5)
First, thanks for all the helpful replies.

Regarding Emotiva: I've had my eye on the line for months, too. Didn't know if something that reasonably priced was any good. The USP-1 pre-amp does not have tone controls. I called up the Emo folks after reading this, and discussed running 3.6Rs with their amps.

The very helpful guy there knew Maggies well and said he had one concern: he was trying to recall if these older 3.6Rs could dip down to a minimum impedance of 1.6 ohms. If so, the Emo UPA-1 monoblocks might not handle it well, and I'd be better advised to go with the XPA-2 two-channel amp or other high-current amp.

Can someone confirm if the 3.6Rs do present a 1.6-ohm load? If so - is Parasound a better idea, since they're proud of their high current amp specs?

Regarding W4S: The integrated STI-500 looks juuuuust do-able at $2K. No tone controls and no phono inputs. I called up W4S today and again reached a very helpful guy there. He said no problem with powering Maggies, even if they can or do present a 1.6 ohm load, and there's a loop function into which I can run an EQ unit if I need to.

Everyone here okay with Class D amps? Sounds like a great concept: Light weight, low power use.

Power requirement: Well, I'm using a rack PA power amp now (QSC RMX-1450)and at the volumes I like, with the bass EQ goosed a bit, it's using all its power at 400w/4 ohms, I think - the clip indicators light up at times.

More suggestions and discussions are welcome, and more comparisons to NAD and Parasound are appreciated.

Thanks again for the coaching. I know - it's fun to help folks spend their money!

=K
- RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - Dawnrazor 01:16:23 04/28/12 (0)
  Never heard a NAD that I recall. Though I did have and audio buddy that loved them...which is good enough reason for me to avoid them :)
  
  Anyhow I did own a Pass X-150 once and replaced it with 2 parasound a21s. Long story but I was going to biamp and another pass would be too much heat for the room to bear. Anyhow I couldnt directly compare them which is a long story. But it is safe to say that the Pass is a killer amp and that I never felt I lost anything with the Halos.
  
  Though the guy I sold the pass too (wazoo) took it to a dealer that was using the a21 to power some 3.6s. Some posts you might find interesting:
  
  waz
  
  a21 vs pass x150
  
  andyr
  
  thread
  
  Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
- RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - Utley1 20:08:39 04/27/12 (0)
  The XPA 1's have worked well with my 1.7's....Their range is so extensive that that the 1.7's had to be broken in a second time. . with the right room treatement the combination can sound very rich...They have helped fulfill the potential of these amazing speakers.....
- RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - josh358 15:26:16 04/27/12 (2)
  Class D amps are somewhat controversial. Some speak highly of them, others are bothered by distortion in the highs, and intermodulation products which can be high if the one-size-fits-all passive network at the output doesn't work well with the complex impedance presented by a particular set of speakers. Sorry if that isn't much help, but it's speaker and perhaps listener-dependent, so I think you have to listen to know if they're for you. That being said, the W4S's have a good reputation and several people here have said good things about them and Maggies.
  - RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - dromney 00:25:20 05/05/12 (0)
    I agree. Class D amps have been problematic for the last 20 years. Lots of power .. lots of distortion on the high end. I would avoid them for other than subwoofer amps.
  - RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - JBen 16:02:00 04/27/12 (0)
    Josh, I was writing pretty much the same thing and then looked at the other browser session and you had posted this. Here it is, anyway.
    
    Re: "Everyone here okay with Class D amps? Sounds like a great concept: Light weight, low power use."
    
    Not categorically. I have yet to hear one that I truly like at the very top. However, I have not heard W4S yet and it has a reputation that merits serious consideration, IMHO.
RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - Satie 01:44:17 04/27/12 (3)
Of the affordable current NADs go for BEE series only. The others are too hard up top, and the BEE are still overly bright.

I second the Wyred 4 Sound. if you need a pre as well, then stretch for their big integrated STI1000. If you have a problem with their top end performance you can return it. Recent reports on ribbon maggies are rather favorable so I am holding out some hope that this is "THE" bargain amp for them - as it competes with $5K+ amps.

The Emotiva are also a good economy choice for a new amp.

But really, the NAD 208 and a little less so the NAD 218 can do this better and are not too steep on the used market.

A tube hybrid amp from the used market would really be great. But many of the best ones - like Counterpoints are a bit of a restoration project, and the more recent ones are either way more expensive (new Moscodes) or a little underpowered (Monarchy and Vincent - though their tube hybrid monoblocks might work at just about the top of your range - used)
- RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - Emsquare 12:52:44 04/27/12 (2)
  Just to chime in with the experience I had transitioning from NAD products to the Sunfire. I had started over with a reasonable intetgrated amplifier in a NAD 317. I was content with that to drive my 1.5's. Although this combination suffered from that annoying shrill quality in the crossover region I just didn't really know what to attribute that to at at the time. That's what eventually led me to The Planar Assylum. When I started to try to figure out why I was getting the problem I mentioned I ran across the suggestion I was looking for here. I was a fan of NAD from the perspective of price to performance and just liked the understated build of their stuff.
  Now that I have a subjective comparison with the NAD's to the Sunfire I was surprised to find out how noticably opaque the NAD 317 and NAD 217 sounded. And the NAD 217 is essentially 75% of the 218. That series of amplifiers (214, 217 & 218) were much the same. They just kept adding pairs of output devices to the base 214 model for the additional current. And, of course, a larger power supply. I believe that you have previously felt that the NAD's might offer good performance with powering Magnepan bass panels and I think that is sound advice. Very load tolerant and good dynamic power. The only recurrent problem tends to be from arcing out the protection relays because you have the volume up when it clicks in. Carbon pitting of the contacts comes from that. I think that the shortcomings with the lack of transparency isn't going to be a problem for bass panel duty. But knowing what I know now I no longer feel they are a good choice for as a main amplifier. This isn't a global, NAD is no good, statement. I am not familiar with their 'C' series amplifiers. And the premplifier I have (NAD C160) is acually quite good and cannot be accused of being opaque as it compares well with a simple passive control and the DCB1 also. I just wanted to share what my experience was with the upgrade process when I transitioned away from the NAD amplifiers I was using. I tend to read what you have to say about many of the products on the landscape as I feel you have a better feel for the differences than I do.
  I still feel that a used Sunfire 300 has a lot to offer in the $1000 and under catagory on the used market. They're completely stable to 2 Ohms and won't choke on dips down to an Ohm. In my experience they're quite transparent and fit well whether you need either current or voltage delivery because of the tracking downconverter power supplies. That makes for a fine place holder till your ready for a cost-no-object kind of amplifier.
  
  Edits: 04/27/12 04/27/12 04/27/12 04/27/12
  - RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - dromney 00:21:45 05/05/12 (0)
    I have been an owner of Sunfire equipment and I believe they are great bang for the buck. Solid power and good sound - bullet proof. They do have the sound characteristics that Bob Carver likes best, but that is a hard standard to complain about as he seems to strive for a tube sound. Anyway, I agree Sunfire is good stuff.
  - RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - Satie 23:19:35 04/27/12 (0)
    Agreed.
    
    By all counts the Sunfire amps are great bargains and perform very well with difficult loads and low sensitivity speakers. They are also not hyped up on top so can be used on ribbon maggies without regret.
RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - pictureguy 20:09:50 04/26/12 (0)
How did you arrive at needing 400 watts?
Any idea how LOUD that would be? At 40 watts RMS with 10x peaks, you'd find it unbearably loud.

Ever consider a preowned Krell integrated? Or MF? or any one of a good, strong half dozen contenders?

At the 2000$ mark you can get a newish piece with 200+ watts. That's <3db from your 'need'.
Too much is never enough
RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - ejman 19:12:49 04/26/12 (1)
If you want new for under 2K Emotiva is hard to beat. In fact, this may be a good starting place. You'll find out what you like (or not) in sound. Note the Emo preamp does not have tone controls. I bought the Usp 1 and UPA 1's for my MMG's and the sound was really punchy, detailed and presenting a good soundstage. Ultimately, I decided I wanted a warmer sound and went the tube preamp route (Mapletree) and a warmer but beefy SS amp (Conrad Johnson)
- RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - Kurtle 21:09:35 04/26/12 (0)
  I will second the UPA-1 and USP-1 recommendation. Both the USP-1 and UPA-1 are 10% off now, bringing you two 350 watt (into 4 ohms) monoblocks and a preamp with a 30 day in home trial for $1000. Hard to beat. I have the UPA-1's and are very very pleased with them (MMG's, using an Adcom GFP-750 preamp). I have heard pretty good things as well about the USP-1, particularly for its price. The 30 day in home really gives you a chance to determine if they work for you. Check out the review below.
  - http://www.tonepublications.com/review/the-emotiva-usp-1-pre (Open in New Window)
  Edits: 04/26/12
RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - EmailTim 19:00:26 04/26/12 (0)
Check out the W4S integrated(s).

The STI-500 is in your price range, the STI-1000 is a little more.

They both have remotes and can drive a 4Ohm load. I have one of the STI-1000's driving a pair of Mini-Mags. I also believe they have an audition policy.
- W4S Integrateds (Open in New Window)
RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - JBen 18:57:11 04/26/12 (3)
Hi K! For 3.6Rs, I would not go for a New Classic 2250 as a power amp. Not even for my MMGs. However, Parasound's own Halo A21 is a great choice. It would not shortchange your 3.6R, and the ribbon tweeters would tell you. With patience, I've been able to find them new for as low as $1200, on behalf of friends. Even used, they are worth every penny this much. They keep well. Plus Parasound is top notch on the support side where personal attention starts with their prez.

If the budget still forces you to consider the 2250, then you should also look at Emotiva's lineup, typically a better value and comparable SQ.

Now, the Parasound 2100 pre is good, not great but a good value. The NAD pre-amp may be a good alternative and probably a little warmer.

I understand the need for a remote. On my lazy moods I pre-amp via a Denon AVR 4306 receiver, which is decent enough. It feeds the bi-amp setup that goes to Parasound power amps (older but same design as the Halo line).

Now, on my "dedicated audio" moods, I hook up directly to the bi-amp from the source. In your case, it would be a passive "pre-amp" setup instead. If a little room were left available in your budget for a passive pre, your 3.6R would show you a new demension.
- RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - Dawnrazor 19:11:00 04/26/12 (2)
  I've been able to find them new for as low as $1200, on behalf of friends
  
  Do you really mean NEW for $1200?? Or did you mean to say used??
  
  Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
  - RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - JBen 22:33:43 04/26/12 (1)
    Yes, new. One for $1200 and another for $1250 later. Patience was the key. The first one was a local installer. His client decided not to finish the project because of impending divorce. So, he was left hanging after purchasing several pieces of various gear. I am sure he got a deposit, though.
    
    Much later, yet another friend wanted in. So, I asked the installer to let me know if any other A21s became available. Months later I called again and it seemed, to me at the time, like he was annoyed. Yet, days later he called me. A couple hundred miles north from here, they were closing an installation outfit that had one new A21. I negotiated over the phone and my friend picked it up.
    
    The pond has dried up by now. However, there must be other ponds out there. It probably is important that they are authorized Parasound dealers. I checked with Parasound to make sure, because neither of the installers appeared in their website.
    
    Of course, you know how it is. I'll be able to find them for friends. Yet, these bargains will vanish from the universe the minute the purchase is intended for me.
    - RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - stigs 23:24:51 04/26/12 (0)
      There is another avenue you may have overlooked. There are DIY kit amps that sound and work great without too much effort. I can think of two brands that are well respected. One of which is Hypex and their new NCore NC400 series amp which has a 380 page thread on Diy Audio and the other brand is ClassD Audio which sells kits as well as completed amps.
      I personally have built a couple of ClassD SDS-254 amps and they sound great. ClassD audio is now offering at least 6 different completed models and 10 different kits. There is 165 page thread in Audio Circles Cheap and Cheerfull section which has plenty of info on various models.
      Many of these amps will fall into your budget and have the power you want plus allow you to purchase a nice preamp to boot.
RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - John A. Casler 18:28:10 04/26/12 (0)
Have a couple ideas, but I am a small dealer and it would not be proper to post here. PM or e-mail me if interested.
RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - DrChaos 18:23:04 04/26/12 (0)
Never tried it but what about Vincent integratied amp 236MK
- http://www.vincent-tac.de/en/product-types/integratedamplifi (Open in New Window)
Edits: 04/26/12
RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: NAD or Parasound, or other? - 66mgb 16:40:08 04/26/12 (1)
Keeping in mind new and under 2K you could try an Emotiva USP1 and XPA 2 amp
Russ
- RE: New Ampage for Maggie 3.6Rs: Emotiva - mgbpuff 07:47:18 04/27/12 (0)
  I have Emotiva USP-1 and XPA-1's driving my Maggie 3.6R's in a large room.
  I am very happy with the sound - no dynamic range limitations, and a very low, nonexistent really, noise floor level. The XPA-1 are on the high gain side, however, making USP-1 volume adjustments a little delicate, but the combo works. I might try a tube preamp down the line, but the UPS-1/XPA-1 combo is sweet sounding on their own.

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