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RE: Receiver or amp to drive MMG

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In Reply to: RE: Receiver or amp to drive MMG posted by josh358 on September 18, 2010 at 14:31:23

I estimated PEAK voltage based on watching the DVM numbers flip by.
I took a value 20% above the highest number I saw during normal program material. 10VAC seemed reasonable, while I also ran some numbers at 20VAC.

Mayhaps, I should get out some test tones and try THAT. Than I'll have long enough time to both measure SPL and voltage.

Nowhere NEAR 116db, however. Somewhat lower. I'll get out the ratshack meter and measure that, too. I've never heard a max number, but I somehow doubt a Magnepan will go to 116db.

Between my amp and sub, I have well over a kilowatt. Never tap it to that level, however.

1100 watts per side? That is a nutty 78volts at about 14 amps. Surely near the physical limits of the panel.
Too much is never enough

Follow Ups:

u - josh358 15:55:59 09/18/10 (12)
Satie chose the amplifier size by watching clipping levels, so I guess his panels didn't flap. The Tympani bass panels are amazing. I used to have Tympani 1D's and they could reproduce bass notes with the slam of a dynamic speaker, but with planar clarity and naturalism. (Alas, they don't fit my current room, so I lent them to a friend.) In fact, I just read this comparison of the 20.1's and the Tympani IVA's by someone who had owned both:

"For midrange and highs, the 20's are superior, though I missed the subterranean lows of the Tymps. The MG20's will exceed their range and flap before reaching the lo-frequency spl's of the Tympani's."

I've never forgotten that bass and it's why I'm on a Quixotic quest to shoehorn Tympani woofers into my tiny listening room.

The 116 dB SPL comes from a paper on concert hall levels written by a fellow from Dolby Labs. But, again, it's a peak figure, and instaneous peak levels are *much* higher than average levels. You need a scope or a real-time analyzer or meter with a peak hold function to read them. You really don't want to let test signals at anywhere near that level get near your speakers, the best that can happen is that you'll blow the fuse.

116 dB SPL is a pretty typical upper limit for the peak SPL of audiophile speakers. Professional speakers play louder. I don't have the figure for Maggies, but if you're listening at an average level of 95 dB SPL and your amp isn't clipping, there's a good chance that they're reproducing 115 dB SPL peaks. In my experience, though, the MMG's start to sound strained when they get that loud. They just don't have enough woofer surface area -- 312 square inches vs. 1254 for the Tympani IVA's -- and they probably have a higher Q.
- Peak decibels - peterhh 21:00:14 09/18/10 (11)
  95 db sounds awfully loud to me. I mean that's really kicking. I don't think my ears could handle it. I haven't been to a lot of truly acoustic concerts but I went to a couple, including one at Carnegie Hall and a couple at Dartmouth College, and SPLS seemed a lot lower than what I hear at audio showrooms. I think a clean 100db peak would be enough to satisfy me.
  - RE: Peak decibels - josh358 05:59:14 09/19/10 (10)
    Check out figure 2, I think you'll find it interesting:
    
    http://www.zainea.com/Dynamic%20range.htm
    
    Those 116 dB peak levels are actually pretty middle of the road for live music, but if you look down further in the article you'll see that they're on the high side for classical. So 116 dB is basically the figure that you need to size an amplifier to play the loudest classical recordings at a natural level without clipping. Most recordings won't hit those peaks and some people such as Morricab argue for a smaller, sweeter amplifier.
    
    Also, I think that subjective levels can be misleading. The ear tends to decide a sound is loud when it starts hearing distortion, and most consumer gear gets decidedly uncomfortable at moderately high SPL's.
    
    Another factor is that we're talking instantaneous peaks here. It's possible to push up a stereo system to give you a higher average level than what you'd hear at a classical concert -- just about any system will do it, even a pair of Quads. What happens though is that you lose the peaks.
    
    Finally, a 10 dB difference equates only to a subjective doubling of loudness. So subjectively, 95 dB isn't that different from 85 dB. Louder, yes, but not horrifically so, as you might think from looking at the numbers. Very clean sound can be very hazardous sound, since you're apt to turn it up without knowing it, and once your ears ring or you hit the threshold of pain (about 120 dB SPL) you've done damage -- perhaps even before that.
    - RE: Peak decibels - pictureguy 08:10:59 09/19/10 (9)
      As for clean sound, yeah, I'll bet. Very deceptive until......
      
      OSHA has time / loudness limits. Not going to look them up, but I'm sure I exceeded them at an Emerson, Lake and Palmer concert a LONG time ago.
      
      The all-day work limit is pretty low from the hi-fi standpoint.
      Too much is never enough
      - My Experience - ProfPaul 15:55:34 09/19/10 (8)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Peak decibels posted by pictureguy on September 19, 2010 at 08:10:59
        
        I can see you're getting a lot of different suggestions - let me share my experience.
        
        Before getting my MMGs, I owned an Onkyo TX-SR806. THX certified, rated at 130 WPC 8ohm, 200 WPC 4 ohm. It's a $1000 retail amp that can be had for around $600 if you shop, just to give you an idea. I also use a sub (driving the lower frequencies can be a significant strain on any amp. I figured the Onkyo could probably handle the MMGs in 2.1 channel mode.
        
        It wasn't terrible. In fact, when the music was softer, it sounded fantastic. But, I could distinctly hear clipping/distortion when the level peaked. And, based on what I've read, I was probably putting a significant enough load on the amp that I was sending it towards an early grave.
        
        Reading through forums like this, there seem to be a lot of quality amp manufacturers out there. I started watching Craigslist until an Odyssey Stratos (300 WPC into 4 ohm) came along. While it doesn't sound like much bigger of an amp, it drives the MMGs a lot louder than I am allowed to take them with no distortion that I can detect. When I can afford to fill out my system to 5.1, I'm hoping my Onkyo will be able to drive the center and rear channels.
        
        I'm extremely happy with the Stratos, but I think most quality amps would probably do an equally good job. If you're planning to go new, Emotiva seems to be the best bang for the buck at the moment, with Outlaw another excellent option. If you go used, many quality brands (Odyssey, Parasound, Rotel...) can be had for similar or better prices. Just remember that you'll probably also need a preamp.
        
        Short summary: I would respectfully disagree with those suggesting a standard consumer-grade reciever, such as my Onkyo. However, especially for 2.1 systems, used preamps and amps can be had at very reasonable prices.
        
        Hope that helps,
        
        Paul
        
        RE: My Experience - peterhh 00:09:29 09/20/10 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: My Experience posted by ProfPaul on September 19, 2010 at 15:55:34
        
        Thanks, Paul. I think some of the Onkyo products are a cut above the typical consumer gear. In the old days HK also used to put some fairly serious electronics into their receivers. Magnepan's website definitely pushes the high current bit so I am going to take them at their word on that. But they also hint at not liking class D. An old article on the company mentions their having a NAD receiver driving the MMGs in the lobby, and they mention the NAD as one receiver that has acceptable specs. Actually, I used to have one of these, maybe an older model, and I thought it sounded decent but maybe a bit dead compared to tube units. Maybe old tubes would be a good choice (new tubes are too $$$. In fact, while the Emotiva does look like a good choice, even that gets into fairly serious $$$ relative to the speaker price, but possibly doable.)
        Thanks again,
        Peter
        
        Dawnrazor's point is spot on - wazoo 06:01:56 09/21/10 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: My Experience posted by peterhh on September 20, 2010 at 00:09:29
        
        The conventional wisdom of spending half one's full system budget on speakers flies out the window with the MMGs (or the 1 series - probably true even for the 20.1s). For a month, I had the mother of all inversions of that principle in the form of a $10k Pass amp driving my MMGs (while I was awaiting delivery of a pair of 3.6s). Those lowly little MMGs (modded to the hilt) revealed just how sweet that amp is. I only hooked it up to make sure it was healthy (picked it up used via Audiogon for less than half what it sold for ~5 years ago), but doing so showed me just how sane such a seemingly ridiculous action actually is.
        Do not shortchange your MMGs. Forget the conventional wisdom and buy the best amp you can afford. Don't forget the upside to 'upgraditis' - when others are infected with that disease, perfectly good equipment hits the used market - you can afford better equipment than you can afford ;-).
        
        "Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ
        
        Edits: 09/21/10 09/21/10
        
        But I can't afford $4500! - peterhh 22:12:27 09/22/10 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Dawnrazor's point is spot on posted by wazoo on September 21, 2010 at 06:01:56
        
        It's quite a compliment to the little Maggies that they can reveal the virtues of $4500 amps. I guess my best bet might be to get a top-notch amp from 15 years ago on the used market. If I go that far, I'd probably want to fiddle with taking out the fuses and changing the crossover and wiring and so on. There's an interesting looking mod for the MG 12 -- the guy makes it sound like the difference is night and day. just google MG12 and you'll find it. So I assume there are MMG mods as well, though one 'mod' would be to trade em in for MMGs!
        
        btw Thanks to everyone for their thoughts and suggestions!
        
        Used? - Dawnrazor 21:56:07 09/23/10 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: But I can't afford $4500! posted by peterhh on September 22, 2010 at 22:12:27
        
        Here are a couple that I THINK would do a decent job for the money. Maybe some one with first hand exp would chime in
        
        http://www.audioclassics.com/detail.php3?detail=4004-II&nav=cat
        http://www.audioclassics.com/detail.php3?detail=RB1080&nav=cat
        
        No one here remembers the bending of our minds
        
        absolutely - wazoo 10:33:09 09/24/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Used? posted by Dawnrazor on September 23, 2010 at 21:56:07
        
        The Aragon is a great suggestion - here's (link below) one for $800. There are plenty of excellent amps that won't break the bank. Heck, if one's budget is <$500, there are good choices to be had - there's a Parasound HCA-1500 on the 'gon right now for $450. 'Buy the best you can afford' doesn't mean he has to mortgage his house. I just wanted to confirm what you said about the old concept of spending half (or more) of one's total system budget on the speakers - it simply doesn't apply to the MMGs. If someone spent 10 times the cost of the MMGs on his amp, I wouldn't think he was crazy at all (at least, not any more ;-).
        
        ----
        
        I'll be putting in my equipment shelving and cabinetry tomorrow - finally done with it all. I still have quite a bit of work to do, but it's coming along nicely and I love the new space. I have less retirement money, but I'll enjoy my retirement (only semi-retired at present) more!
        
        "Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ
        Aragon 4004 MKII (Open in New Window)
        
        RE: Dawnrazor's point is spot on - Dawnrazor 20:32:04 09/22/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Dawnrazor's point is spot on posted by wazoo on September 21, 2010 at 06:01:56
        
        Hey Waz,
        
        Thanks for chiming in. I know it must be hard to take time out from your awesome new system.
        
        Glad you got what you wanted!!
        
        D
        
        No one here remembers the bending of our minds
        
        RE: My Experience - Dawnrazor 23:06:02 09/20/10 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: My Experience posted by peterhh on September 20, 2010 at 00:09:29
        
        Hi Peter,
        
        The common wisdom of amp to speaker ratios for budgeting go out the window for mags. It sucks, but it mostly true.
        
        FWIW, I spent about $4600 on my amps and paid $500 for my mags. At this point I would say that both components are in the same league and a fantastic match.
        
        Sure, I started with an HK integrated, and then added an external carver ht amp, then ditched the integrated and bought a carver pre, then a better carver amp 500w, then a better pre by Conrad Johnson.
        
        Then came the Pass and now the pair of Parasound Halos. No way I could go back to the carvers or HKs.
        
        No one here remembers the bending of our minds
        
        RE: My Experience - esande 23:16:18 09/20/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: My Experience posted by Dawnrazor on September 20, 2010 at 23:06:02
        
        About right. I paid $4k for my amp and $2K for my speakers.
        
        Then I had my speakers modded for $2K. So it's about equal.
        
        But it came out exactly right, thanks Peter.
RE: Receiver or amp to drive MMG - esande 15:41:05 09/18/10 (1)
I haven't really tried pushing the envelope on my setup to the point that the clip lights illuminate. That would be way too loud, I think. I rarely listen above 85 db on the meter. But I get no sense of running out of headroom with my setup, neither the panels nor the amp are even "breathing hard" at that level.

But I don't know what the latency is on the meter, I know my measurements are imperfect and at best are back of the envelope calculations. In other words my sensors are clipping before the amp or panels are.

However, it sounds good. So as the good, conscientious audiophile that I am, I choose to accept that if it sounds good, it is good.

:-)
- RE: Receiver or amp to drive MMG - pictureguy 23:37:17 09/18/10 (0)
  Please, those with a DVM, even a cheap-o, take some voltage measures at 'normal', for YOU, listening levels and report back.
  
  I'm sure that by the time I got it flickering at 50+ volts, I'd have ear ringing for a week.
  Too much is never enough

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