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In Reply to: RE: GaNFETs don't cost that much. posted by claudej1@aol.com on June 26, 2025 at 10:40:55
OK, so I had to dig down into the site to find this "Wonder" Class D amp, buried among the inferior valve offerings, by your own admission.
This site avoids commercial adverts, which is why I asked for a link via Email. Thank you for that.
However, I had to click onto a review to find that the amps in question are 100 Watts per monobloc at a cost of $6,000 vs. my 10 year old Hypex NC-400's that have 4 times the Power at 1/4 the price for two monoblocs.
So, assuming there is Zero Audible difference (no proof or curves required, it's subjective, like 99% of EMOTIONAL Testing in Audio) Your "don't cost much" statement would receive a Paul W. Klipsch BULLSHIT button if he were still alive to assign one to that post!!!
Follow Ups:
Bluster is never a way to win a debate.
What you didn't read were the reviews. Perhaps anecdotal evidence like that means nothing to you, but FWIW the comments we get from reviews are strikingly similar to those from our customers, which can be seen on our feedback page. When lots of people say the same thing over a period of years, those anecdotes take on more weight.
Yes, its more expensive than your old Hypex, which is an excellent design.
What we've found is that with a lot of Hypex and other designs from the godfather of class D, Bruno Putzeys, is that things like the input buffer and power supply have an enormous impact on the way the circuit will perform. The Hypex modules were sold as modules only so someone had to buy them and put them in a box to make them work. If they skimped on anything the resulting amp would not perform as well as it could.
I think that is an enormous part of why class D has not had good acceptance in high end audio. I've met plenty of people who have said they will never try a class D amp again. Its not the fault of class D or the module; just poor execution which prevented the module strutting its stuff.
So yes, our stuff is more expensive (still a lot cheaper than the tube amps to which it is superior) but you have a nice chassis that survives shipping with ease, a properly built and protected power supply and the input buffer integrated into the module; all easily serviced and updatable.
If the cost is all that is stopping you that's no worries on my part. I've noticed that the best horn systems (of which IMO the Klipsch are not an example) aren't cheap either.
Bluster has to do with the spoken word, in a loud manner, which is not possible with text, unless it's printed with all caps, which I use for EMPHASIS to drive my point. No actual shouting involved.
"Anecdotal evidence" (translated is just one persons OPINION). It is the antithesis of widespread FACTS, which is all I stated with Personal Experience, measuring cost and SPL of actual OWNERSHIP and via financial commitment. If my universal point of "Large, Expensive Horns" only needing good little chip amps that are CHEAP and good enough to get to 124 db output, for less that $100 total cost is lost on a "High Efficiency" group as this, then y'all are in the wrong forum. For those who read with their neighbor's room temp IQ at play, while ignoring the actual WORDS that I typed, this is my anecdotal evidence and my opinion.
I'm sure that the product you designed is a great performer, no issue with that at all, even though I have not heard or measured it, you would not have released it otherwise. But don't tell me how "low cost" it is using overkill technology and claiming such, which at that point PWK will rise from the dead and give your his famous yellow button. It's all relative to PRICE/PERFOMANCE ratio. You'll be more successful at AXPONA nest year where, the rich and technically ignorant buyers, who pay $1,000 a foot for speaker cables will be your willing victim.
All of your pointed "parasitics" are minimized with micro length interconnects on Silicon. No one can BS me about what those are because I was a world renown PWB designer in my other life, where moving electrons at 1 gigahurts (pun intended) meant your were limited to an interconnect of 9 inches or less with damping resistors and parallel capacitors on the inputs as filter. I also had experience with Ferrite Beads to tame the ringing of FAST logic from Farichild Shottky 5 volt swings. Thank God those are part of the anals of history now unknown to young engineers of today. Also, no one can BS me about the performance of copper, aluminum heatsinks since I have a product I designed 40 years ago that still works, before Surface Mount Technology took over. And yes I wrote the very first Article for the SMTA Newsletter as an early adopter, and wrote portions of the early SMT discrete land patterns standards for the IPC.
I still build big horns, listen to Music, movies on 7.4.2 Atmos and use ALL chip amps to do it. But it did not happen in one day.
People do bluster on keyboards all the time, as you have shown. All caps, just so you know, is considered shouting; to emphasize a word, on this site you can use html to provide emphasis, or bracket the word **with asterisks**.
Mr. Klipsch will not be coming back or doing anything , regardless of what I do or don't do, so no yellow button. In the meantime, the amps with which our class D effectively competes are usually a multiple of the cost of the class D.
There are cheaper class D amps out there of course. Each with its own means of a corner cut. If you want a decent chassis and power supply for example, that costs something. We found that if you use a switching supply, it had better well be designed for the application else it will hinder performance. Using such a thing would allow us to make the amp much less expensive, but custom built SMPS are not practical unless you can order in 1000+ quantities. So we use a toroid.
"the amps with which our class D effectively competes are usually a multiple of the cost of the class D."
Therein likes the truth. Apples to Oranges.
I was comparing class D chip amps and my 10 year old Hypex NC-400's
Class D chip amps and Class D Discrete. You clearly stated that your ONLY class D was far superior to the best of your OTL Valves. No argument there.
My ONLY point was that it's not necessary to use GaN trasistors to get great perfomance on all the horns I built and/or owned in the last 10 years. Any bass horn will require more power than treble horns, which I used Jubilees in my living room with Chip Amps to prove my point.
Everything else just got out of hand and I'm done arguing with people that are don't contribute anything (not you), or have products to sell (you).
Over and out. Have a nice day.
You are absolutely correct.
We don't use GaNFETs so our amps can work on horns or any speaker for that matter. You can use MOSFETs and they will work perfectly fine.
My position is if price of the output devices is the issue, GaNFETs are not just not pricey enough to be a concern in the design. They simply aren't that expensive.
We use them because we can get less switching noise. The speed of them is irrelevant- although they are a lot faster, they need a bit of an inductive kick to get them to shut off. So the deadtime considerations are really similar to MOSFETs. So its really mostly about the radiated noise. The On resistance is lower too, so they don't need nearly the heatsinks that MOSFETs do. But if you're not pushing the amp hard (as in your case) that's not a concern. In our amp how that works out is you can run the amp at full power into four Ohms all day long and its no worries for the amp; it just sits there and within seconds after reducing the power the output devices are stone cold.
I guess if was my Automotive Electronics background rearing it's head.
I that market of 300,000 modules/model year, if you save $1 per assembly they almost raise as statue in your honor.
Not being an Audio Amplifier Manufacturer, I can only know the consumer level Price and NOT the development and productions costs of non-automotive volumes.
You have been relatively accurate in your comments here. No problemo.
Besides, there are no absolutes, Everything is relative, especially in audio and music reproduction!
"or have products to sell"Yup. Tom Danley (here known as tomservo) immediately comes to mind. He never misses an opportunity to promote himself.
*********
We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.
Edits: 06/30/25
This is where I think you are wrong about Tom, especially without long term evidence, like have, and everyone else here.
He's "just the facts" kind of guy, and has helped tremendously in helping educate us all in the complexities of horns and sound reproduction, as has Bill Fitzmaurice, and a few other participants here.
He has never promoted himself, I have read pretty much all of his posts to constantly upgrade my quest for further education. All he he does is SHARE real information based on his experiences with horns and drivers and none of it has EVER been promotional, other than his business partner named the company after him (an honorable thing to do). I assure you that they are both high integrity individuals.
That is a weak accusation that is beneath you, so I will assume this is a "glitch/faux pas" on your part indicative of anything further.
Peace, Love, Beatles
Yeah...exactly like Ralph does. And Tom does occasionally allude to the fact that he is in "the business" just as Ralph does. Just go look at the thread at the top of "Speakers" here right now. The only reason I have ever heard of the SH 50 speaker Tom builds is because he brings it up in his response to the OP. And you know what? I'm perfectly fine with it, just like I am with Ralph's oblique references because it is obvious to me that in both cases the postings of these two are maximally well intentioned and helpful and minimally inclined to self promotion. Would that all of the participants in AA were of the quality and as informative as these two guys are.
Maximally well intentioned, indeed. Good post.
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