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In Reply to: RE: JBL 2405 and 077 posted by Inmate51 on April 19, 2025 at 14:08:15
I would not say they sucked Frank Sinatra owned JBL Paragon that used the 075 bullet. Nelson Pass owns to this day JBL L300 that use the 077 slot a lot of famous musicians in the 50's 60's and 70 up into the 80's used JBL in their own homes. JBL is just like Coca cola, Nike, Apple recognized worldwide for good reason.
Accurate I do not think that is a good way to describe the 075, 076, 077 but when it comes to dispersion the 077-slot tweeter kicks ass!!! 130 degrees of horizontal dispersion up to 15,000 KHZ and 110 degrees horizontal dispersion at 20,000 KHZ that is really good dispersion characteristics especially for their era.
Follow Ups:
"I would not say they sucked"That's fine. Different people like different things. As I wrote previously, a lot of people liked them.
Regarding the JBL L300: Actually, I like the L300. Nice cabinetry, and it was an iconic vintage speaker, loved and lusted after by JBL fans. Great for rock 'n roll and folk music. There was a used pair for sale at a hifi shop several years ago, and for a not-bad price. I would have considered buying them, except for the fact that they were in Warren's shop in Berkeley, CA. It would have been a chore to take them on the plane or have them shipped. I don't know whatever happened to them. Sadly, Warren has passed away and the shop has been closed ever since.
But, yes, from a FR accuracy and dispersion standpoint, the 2405 and 077 sucked (that's a slang term).
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We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.
Edits: 04/21/25
yes, different strokes for different folks. OMG I could only imagine the shipping cost for a pair of L300 and I would be worried they could get damaged in shipping.
You may have missed this post, where I asked the question, with regard to multimeters and voltmeters.
"What brands/models do you own/use?"
Thanks."
What do you use?
*********
We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.
I have several the brand is fluke One desktop model 8808A and several handheld one handheld is a 117 the others I don't remember. Can't go wrong with a fluke. Funny thing is I've never use a multimeter for anything audio lol besides biasing an amplifier.
And why is everybody fixated on how to check a speaker's polarity when a speaker does not have a fixed polarity?
If you take a three-way system and you reverse the polarity of the Tweeter the mid-range and the woofer putting all positive wires on the negative terminals and all the negative wires on the positive terminals will the speaker be out of phase? Will the speaker measure different?
The answer is the speaker will not be out of phase and it will measure exactly the same as if it were wired normally.
What if you didn't have an expensive multimeter and you just had a little cheap multimeter, but you had no battery could you still check the polarity of say a woofer? Yes, you could. A speaker's voice coil moving inside a magnetic field creates voltage just like a moving coil phono cartridge would.
So if you take a woofer put the red lead from a multimeter to the positive Black lead to the negative put the multimeter on DC millivolt setting. Now push the woofers cone down the meter will read voltage and show a negative symbol. When the cone comes back up it will show voltage and a positive symbol. This is a very easy way to check polarity with a woofer or a mid-range. Cone moving up or forward means positive polarity.
You could also check the polarity of any type of speaker with any multimeter if it's in the cabinet hooked to your amplifier and playing music. When your cone moves it creates DC voltage this is called back EMF electro motive force. And if you set any multimeter to DC millivolts you should be able to measure the polarity even though the amplifier is feeding the speaker AC due to the back EMF being DC.
Speaking of amplifiers delivering AC current AC current has no fixed polarity which means your amplifier is just like your speaker and has no fixed polarity. The black and red outputs on an amplifier are not to Mark the polarity that's not there it's to keep the speakers in phase. Same with a speaker.
I'm not an electrical engineer I'm not a speaker driver designer I don't even know what all a multimeter can be used for. But I do know this if a simple post about how to check a speaker's polarity caused the response that it did. Then this post telling people that think amplifiers and speakers have fixed polarity. That they actually don't have fixed polarity should be fun times.
Check this out.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
You sent me a link about phase. My post is referencing that a speaker has no fixed polarity, and an amplifier has no fixed polarity. Phase and polarity are not the same thing.
In an audio context polarity refers to the direction of currant/signal. Positive will push negative will pull.
In audio phase is the timing of two signals. Two signals in time alignment are in phase and two signals out of time alignment are out of phase.
I thought I sent you a link about The Wood Effect which is about absolute polarity. I see the author of the website I sent you to is using the wrong term.
Absolute polarity is about making sure the speakers are moving forward when they should be instead of moving backwards.
Sorry for the confusion.
Maybe you could take a look at the link below. I think the terms are used properly this time. :-)
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Audio is crazy sometimes!!! It's crazy a CD can have different polarity's Audio engineer Steve Hoffman talks about the challenges of mastering different tracks with different polarity' these effects digital media. Vinyl does not suffer from this fate.
But how many times have you found yourself wishing the mastering on a CD would stay in polarity?
So, there are so many links in the chain it's best to ignore them and just enjoy music.
Or you will be worrying is the electric guitars pickups in polarity with the amp and is the amps speaker in polarity with the guitar pickup. Was the microphone that recorded the guitar in polarity was the microphone in polarity with the recording device? Was everything before reaching the mixing console in polarity? Guitarist pickups do not have to be in polarity with each other so using the bridge and neck pickup out of polarity with each other means the original signal from a guitar can be in and out of polarity from the start all the way through the recording process all the way to your speakers. It just becomes too much to think about and it reaches a point where it just doesn't matter. Do the ingredients matter or the taste? So, what I am trying to say is if it sounds good eat it. Or if it tastes good listen to it.
If we listed all the negative phenomena associated with the reproduction of recorded music and wrote a book talking about these phenomena, we would have no audiophile industry. People would think the whole process was so flawed they would not want to get into the hobby.
The best way to listen to music is live. The second-best way is a live recording. Funny the most popular way people listen to music is listening to studio recordings and technically studio recordings are not even close to being music. They are recordings of a drummer playing to a metronome laying down the drum track, Then the bassist comes in puts on headphones lays down the bass track, then the guitarist, vocals all do the same and then all these separately recorded tracks are mixed into something that sounds like a musical performance but technically is not a musical performance. 99% of audiophiles mainly listen to studio recordings that are not music to begin with.
The audiophile hobby is crazy start to finish sometimes it's simple and sometimes it's complex but it's never boring talking about all of its flaws. And despite all its flaws there some pretty good sounding music coming out of most people's systems.
Sometimes in reference to the audiophile hobby I wish I was ignorant. Sometimes ignorance can truly be bliss.
"Or you will be worrying is the electric guitars pickups in polarity with the amp and is the amps speaker in polarity with the guitar pickup."
"Was the microphone that recorded the guitar in polarity was the microphone in polarity with the recording device?"
On the first point, it doesn't matter. What matters is, does the guitarist like the sound he or she is producing? Only after that is it the recording engineer's job to faithfully capture that sound.
On the second point, much of those concerns are addressed in the design and construction phases of the equipment and cabling, such that many items in the chain are known good, and don't have to be checked every time they're used. For example, when I built my microphone cables many years ago, I wired them all pin 2 hot, and when I built my Valley People TransAmp mic pres chassis, all connections are pin 2 hot. No need to check them every time. Although, the TransAmp cards do have a polarity reverse button, in case I ever need to or want to change the polarity.
*********
We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.
All guitarists including myself play with pickups in and out of phase just depends on the sound you're going for that was a bad example.
As far as cabling in a studio I would expect everything to be wired in phase.
But not all recordings are in phase and some DAC's and SACD & Cd players have phase inversion switches. Why would a SACD or CD player or DAC have a phase inversion switch?
So, it is common that some parts of recordings can be in phase while other parts of the same recording are out of phase. So, while of course you want everything in the chain to be in phase it's not always the case. So sometimes ignorance is bliss.
"that was a bad example."
Yes.
"As far as cabling in a studio I would expect everything to be wired in phase."
I think you meant polarity. (Refer to your earlier post about phase vs polarity.)
"So sometimes ignorance is bliss."
Not if you work in the music or audio fields.
BTW, I'm still wondering who Henry Olsen is.
*********
We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.
You love to be petty and nit pick so please allow me to be petty. with some petty questions.
Inmate51 wired a mid range driver in his 3 way speakers black to red and red to black causing the mid range to be out of phase with the tweeter and woofer that are wired red to red and black to black. True or False
Inmate51 wired a mid range driver in his 3 way speakers black to red and red to black causing the mid range to be out of polarity with the tweeter and woofer that are wired red to red and black to black. True or False
The article I was referring to was a link user Tre sent me you should read it. It talks about compact disc having different polarity's on the same recording. Because of this some DAC, SACD, compact disc player manufactures put phase inversion switches on their DAC's, SACD players and cd players labeled PHASE INVERSION SWITCH!! So does this mean that these high end manufactures used the wrong word "phase" when they should have used the term "polarity inversion switches"? If you feel the need to try to correct them also please let me know I can link you their email addresses.
And yes I know who Harry Olsen is. Still awesome to think that he patented dual voice coils and ribbon microphones in the early to mid 1930's. And Henry Olsen was my first music teacher from 1980 to 1983 from the age nine to age twelve.
"Sound waves are created by alternating regions of compression and rarefaction, which are areas of high and low pressure respectively, as a vibrating object moves through a medium like air. "
Sound is a change in air pressure. When, almost all, acoustic instruments create sound the first 1/4 wave is an increase (compression) of the air pressure from ambient pressure. The second 1/4 wave is a decrease back to ambient pressure. The third 1/4 wave is a decrease from ambient pressure (rarefaction) and the last 1/4 of the first full wave form of sound created by the instrument is an increase of the air pressure back to ambient pressure.
If you record a single acoustic instrument digitally it is very easy to look at the wave form and see if your recording is in or out of absolute polarity. The first 1/4 wave is either a compression of the air (wave form going up) or a rarefaction (wave form going down).
If you record a acoustic band live in the studio (like a three piece, piano, drums and stand up bass) with one single point stereo microphone (like an AKG C-24) and everything is wired properly (pin 2 hot unless it is English made then it's pin 3 hot) the recording will be in absolute polarity.
As a recording engineer, it's not about "worrying" about these things, it's about caring about these things and taking care of these things and getting them right.
Some recording engineers do, some recording engineers don't.
Tre', retired recording engineer.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Cowboy junkies album Trinity sessions is a one microphone recording sounds ok not my favorite live recording. The AKG C-24) is that two dipole microphones together creating two figure eight patterns 90 degrees opposed to each other to capture the whole room in the recording?
I take for granted sound engineers know what they are doing. I do not want to have to become a microphone and studio recording expert to decide what music I am going to listen to through my system. With my luck all the recordings that sound engineers say are perfect I will not like.
The cowboy Junkies for example was recommended to me by a guy that has a small in-home studio. He was telling me how good it sounds on Audiophile grade systems. And like I said it sounds ok not really music I would go out my way to listen to and I have heard live recordings that sound much better using multiple microphones.
I know the use of multiple microphones has to be a flawed way of recording due to sound from the instruments reaching the multiple microphones at different times due to different distances creating phase issues.
At the same time a single microphone recording seems flawed due to the fact different instruments can vary dramatically in volume and some instruments will be closer to the mic and some further.
Thats why I say sometimes ignorance is bliss sometimes the less you know the better. Don't try to understand it just find what sounds good and listen.
Since you're a recording engineer I need to ask in your opinion what is your favorite Jazz and rock recordings for sound quality?
"what is your favorite Jazz and rock recordings for sound quality? "
I don't have one favorite but these are both great, each in there own way.
View YouTube Video
View YouTube Video
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Two amazing artist Oscar Peterson is my favorite Jazz pianist 2nd place Chick Corea.
Have you ever listened to any of the NPR tiny desk concerts on you tube?
Please check out this acoustical performance by Leon Bridges.
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I am also curious what model multimeter @seancuster71 is using.
Edits: 04/22/25
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