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The salad bowls' drivers are JBL 2441, with 2445 diaphragms (suspicious combo). I have a pair of 2446's on the shelf so I will try swapping those drivers and diaphragms around (the 2446's have ribs, 2445, not). I also ordered some Radian ALUMINUM diaphragms to I will measure and listen to find out if the supposedly superior SOUNDING aluminum 'phagms are all they purport to be by the comments of JBL users of the past. Supposedly Titanium doesn't sound as good. I will also throw in some Faital Pro HF 200's in the mix and some Klipsch K-1133's on those salad bowls to measure and hearMy plan is to make a full 3-way using Dave Ault's CNC machined Super Tweeters I helped develop for the Klipsch Heritage upgrade crowd, using B&C DE-10 and DE-120 drivers. I'm leaning towards the DE-120's for their NEO magnets and rising response above 15 Khz. I can't hear past 13k myself, but hey how can a little extra "air" above that ever hurt anything.
I managed to squeeze the Seismic Sub through my front door with 1/4 inch to spare and set it in the middle of the rear wall in my small living room with full 11 channel Atmos with 2 Tapped Horn subs in the front corner underneath my Trio of Danley SH-50 mains. So basically I didn't need another sub since I'm building a Super Tapped of my own design that should get down to 12 Hz. with no problem, along with another TH-50. IWO, I needed another sub like a hole in the head. But it is assembled and came with an HSU Plate amp as the Bruce Edgar approved gain/EQ boost device for it.
Now to my question going out to fellow inmates here:
What was Bruce Edgar's Best Midrange Driver for the Salad Bowls and did he favor ALUMINUM over Titanium or Alnico Magnets (2441) or Ceramic ones (2446)?
Or do you agree disagree with the path I'm going for here and why?
Edits: 05/14/21Follow Ups:
https://volvotreter.de/downloads/Edgar-Show-Horn.pdf
this article describes edgars techniques to get a lower usable cut-off in a midbass horn. there may be other notes elsewhere
Reactance annulling is a three dollar word that describes a simple process. When the air mass of the horn is added to the driver Mms the operational driver resonance is pushed lower than the driver Fs. If it's too low there's a loss of sensitivity near the horn corner frequency, Fc. Making the rear chamber smaller can raise the operational driver resonance up to where it needs to be for maximum sensitivity to the Fc. Another method of keeping the operational resonance where it works best is to use a driver with a higher Fs than the horn Fc, while a third method is to reduce the size of the driver front chamber. A phase plug can be configured to do that, improving the horn response at both the low end and high end of its pass band.
Edits: 05/18/21
My horns are NOT the Show horn, but have a straight axis down to the throat, where the 15" driver in the 10" Square Throat is clearly visible. This avoids the mess of folding horns and expecting good performance at the high end.
An audiophile by the name Tony Ho who lives in Novi (at least he used to live there when I was meeting up with local audiophiles) used to own an Edgar system and may still own it. I mention his name not only because he may have tried different drivers in his Edgar system about which he could share his experiences, but since he lives locally, you may be able to listen to his system to see what he has would meet your expectations.
Retsel
I used to work with Tony Ho, I think. Heard Apogees at his house, and took his photograph as interior Designer for Zero One in Troy. I think he's also former VP at Burroughs/Unisys, where I used to work for as well, but never knew him then. All of this was in 1997/1998 era. Time flies.
Unless I'm mistaken and we are talking about his son at this point??
Wow, it really is a small world....
Tony picked up the Edgar system maybe around 2005. I suspect that he is around my age, so he would be in his 60s now.
Back then there were some CD player modifiers and Tony had his player modified by Alex Peychev, while I had my player modified by Dan Wright. Paychev's modded player was better. I then modded my own player by adding transformers on the output and then my player edged out his player, at least that is the way I remembered it. We would take our players over to a reviewer's house - Frank Peraino, I believe was his name, who always had great audio equipment including a Reyemo CD player - and we all enjoyed the fun comparing different players and playing different CDs. You wouldn't happen to know Frank, would you?
FYI I found a guy who recones speakers in Whitmore Lake to recone my EVM15L speaker which got blown, in case you need a new speaker reconer guy.
Retsel
Good to know a good reconer
Bruce's Seismic Sub is fantastic and fantastically huge!
As I recall, Bruce typically used 2440 drivers with 2441 diaphragms which are what I have paired with D130s for the straight 80hz horn. The crossover is simple, a coil and two military surplus oil caps for the 2440 and a super tweeter. I'm running Fostex T500s for the super tweeter and cross it at about 12K.
I also had a pair of TAD 4001s and while they go higher, I just kept going back to the JBL 2440s. The TADs measured better, but lacked the engagement factor. While the JBLs start dropping off at 10K, they just handle nuance and depth better and are smoother in my opinion.
Good luck with your new toys.
-Rod
I ordered a pair of Radian Aluminum Diaphragms from PE. They should arrive Tuesday.Plan on using those right off the bat, after curving them of course. Thanks for the encouragement.
Edits: 05/15/21
Like Ivan, I'm curious what you hear with the Radians. It's tempting not that I'm wanting at all.
What's curving mean?
They should arrive Tuesday. Plan on using those right off the bat, after curving them of course.
-Rod
Curving is my term for doing a Magnitude Response plot within the operrating bandwidth.
how come these things never go on sale around my area?
I've listened to the Titan II system with Seismic subs at Bruce's shop, and my impression was that the good doctor hates bright, forward, peaky sound and likes a natural bass flow and wave over iron-fisted impact.
I believe he used things like oil caps in his crossover to tune the sound to that direction. I love my Radian aluminum compression drivers, so I would be curious on the comparison.
On a side note, I would love to try the new Danley Hyperion speakers "made for home."
On your side note, for 2.2 and Atmos HT, I already have SH-50/TH-50 Danleys. Which are, incidentally the same as Tom Danley and Mike Hedden (his business partner/President) have in their living room.Since that is my reference Benchmark system, I can also see why you would want to try the Hyperion, which will attempt to equal that commercial offering for the Home market that wants something a bit "prettier" but not necessarily better sonically. That being said, I would not bet against it!
Edits: 05/15/21
that came with the 2441 when new. IIRC that's how he sold them.
Last time I saw him was many years ago at RMAF when the BeX4016 Truextent Beryllium Diaphragm had just been introduced and Classic Audio Reproductions was using it.
Seems he approved of that one as well but....
It can be a bit 'forward' sounding and may require a bit of breaking in.
Mine have the stock aluminum diaphragms and I am happy.
What mid/bass bins came with your Titan II?
Beleive I have the origianl Titan with folded mid-bass horn.
Thanks for the reply. I don't know what the term "forward" means. If it means the opposite of "backwards" which is what I heard from my Carver Amazing Platinums, then I'm assuming it refers more to room positioning rather than sonic signature. Either way can you please define this term?I had TAD Drivers with my Klipsch K-402 horns on top of Jubilee Clone bass bins, but that combo had a ton of PEQ on the bass and shelving on the TADs to make them flat. They sounded great, but I sold them to make more room for a bigger flat screen OLED 4K in favor of a Danley SH-50 trio with room to spare for twin TH subs. I have a 2.1 setup in the basement with Danley's original Servo BT7 and a pair of TD-1's laid horizontal, but I'm not down there much.
The aluminum Radians will be here next week, so I will have lots of permutations to test and hear.
The Straight Axis Horns have EVM 15B's and have an inner curve to them, made of 1" Baltic Birch Plywood. I have never heard Dr. Edgar's speakers demonstrated before, but since they were for sale 21 minutes from my house, talked about on this forum, I had to satisfy my curiosity and cut loose some cash to do so. I had Klipschorns with a LaScala Mono Center for 30 years. Also many Peavey FH-1 bins (still have 4), LaScalas, and worked up to the big MWMs bins with huge stack of every Pro Horn imaginable (Peavy MB-1's, all the EV's, JBL Elephant Butt Cheeks, etc. along with all kinds of Tweeter horns. I also have some large DIY horns with JBL 2482's a Baby Cheek Tweeters on top of FH1's not hooked up). I have owned pretty much EVERY folded horn on the market over the years and always wanted a straight axis horn that went down to 80 Hz. The BEST speaker I ever heard, which brought tears to my eyes, were the Sadurni Acoustics Stacatto Horns with Subs at Axpona 2015, driven by Class D Hypex amps. If I had 40 Kilobucks and a big house, I would own them........but alas.........
I will report on my progress or lack thereof as the journey unfolds!
Edits: 05/14/21 05/14/21
The much maligned titanium diaphragm doesn't sound half bad in 2440/2441
drivers. Actually I preferred 2440 with 2445 titanium diaphragm to 2441 with truextent beryllium dias. 2440 sounded better in lower part of the spectrum giving more robust if not as esoteric performance. 2441 plus truextent sounds somewhat thin and indifferent. I will be curious what will you find with Radian dias.
I will keep you posted with my progress or lack thereof. LOL. Thank you.
Been wanting to try the Truextent diaphragms for some time, not that the stock 2441 have anything wrong with them that I can discern.Better than I deserve, that's for certain.
Edits: 05/18/21
I tried the Truextent diaphragms in my 2441s and sold them. They are were too "polite" and soft for me. I like the OEM aluminum diaphragms better. I use in Bruce's 350 hz salad bowl.
Jim
Hi, Jim D
I have 2 pairs of JBL 2441's, one pair has the stock aluminum diaphragms and the other has the Truextent diaphragms. The Truextent diaphragms have slightly more detail and air on the top end. This is in direct comparison on my Sierra Brooks 250 hz. mahogany horns. I am sure my system and listening preferences are different then yours but no big deal, since the stock diaphragms are excellent. I miss Dr. Bruce !!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFoCVw2AJRc
Joe
Not going Berylium. Had TADs on a K-402. Loses dispersiona at 8 Khz., Which is why the new Diamond Jubilee will have a special waveguide on the Celestion Driver.I'll be using a MAHL super tweeter lens with a B&C driver from Dave Ault in TN. Tractrix Curver with really good dispersion. Not sure of Xover yet. TBD.
Tonight, I took a first stabe at integrating the Seismic. So far, so good. It give my other subs a run for their money after the bass boost at 25 Hz. I"m using the same channel 1 as the OThorn, which is left corner with Seismic against center back wall. It's really great blend so far.
Edits: 05/23/21
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