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Well I really don't like it so far. My norl listening is NAIM 62 hi cap and 140. VPI prime 21 dyna xx2 and Lehmen phono to Meadowlark Kestrel hotrod speakers.I have just put in and Audio lab 7000n streamer connected to my gustard dac (used for CD play).
The sound is big, clean and open but sounds very aggressive using Tidal.
Prime included with my prime subscription is unlistenable and Serious radio can be ok if I am not actually paying attention.
As I age I just want to have something to play that doesn't need attention when I am relaxing (dozing off). It's nice to get more music too. But I am not so sure I can listen to it and also relax.My apologies for not updating my profile that has caused some confusion. It is done now.
Edits: 04/20/25 04/20/25Follow Ups:
And still happy with it. I feel no need to go any higher up in a streamer.I use it with my TUBE DAC or with it's own DAC output via the RCA connectors. I do use Qobuz Streaming service and been happy with that. I also tried Amazon HD Music and now can use Pandora with the Bluesound.
I enjoy the Bluesound with both DAC's and just change when I'm in the mood but mostly run it straight with it's own output. I use 24/96 all the time.
I hate to say it but it gives my High End Analog setup a run for it's money. I still use my Turntable, CD player, Reel To Reel, and Streamer. I enjoy all.
Btw, I am getting the itch to up grade the power supply my Bluesound. No issue, just me wanting to do this as I have done with most of my gear.
Edits: 04/26/25 04/26/25
I have a modest digital system. A NAD 1050 DAC, Exposure XXII CDP, Cambridge MXN10 streamer/music server & a hard drive containing a digital library consisting of at lossless flac files. I bypass the Cambridge internal DAC and connect to the NAD using coax and use the Exposure's internal DAC to preamp amp inputs. The HD is connected by USB to the streamer. I use Kimber Silver Streak from the CDP (1m) and DAC(.5m) to preamp and am using a 1m strand of Kimber KCAG from the Prima Luna Evo 100 preamp to the Exposure IV poweramp.CDP, Tidal streaming and a digital music library are the digital sources. The digital library consists of CD rips, CDRW rips(created from a Tascam CD-RW901 MKII recording vinyl playback) and free lossless concert download flac files. Of course the concert recordings, soundboards, venue recordings, FM Broadcasts and audience recordings vary greatly in quality. The same can be said about my vinyl recordings / rips.
Quality assessment assuming highest quality flac files.
1.) Lossless flac file. Usb hd connected to streamer and stream magic UI. Best concert downloads are competitive with vinyl playback quality. Rips are musically satisfying, vinyl rips I'm getting up to flip the record, though vinyl playback is still king. I also have an RPi4 that was serving this function prior to getting the MXN10 that may do a better job here.
2.) CDP. CD rips are very close, until adding the MXN10 (oct) changing preamp (over a month ago) and interconnects I preferred the rips of CDs to CDP but positive changes to CDP (and flac files) when changes were made changed my preference.
3.) Streamer (Tidal) - Somewhat disappointed but not really. Given a choice I'll be listening to the music library or physical media. I've selected MAX but have seen higher quality MP3 stuff show up - doesn't sound bad. But overall listening to this is somewhat hit or miss. Albums I know sound great on physical media and the music library are often less enjoyable to play via the streamer. Other times its sounds great. I don't know if this is intermittent or if it's just the quality of the files that are being streamed. But this is a far better way to audition new music than using Youtube or Spotify via my PC system.
It's a work in process. I still collect LPs but find the vinyl ritual cumbersome and a distraction to the listening experience. I'm sure there's more improvement to be made on the digital side but as it stands I'd rather use a GUI than physical media more often than not with what I have going now. I have a sense that a Roon solution my be in my future.
Edits: 04/23/25 04/23/25
You might want to try a reclocker (or a "DDC") between the streamer and DAC..... Especially if you're running Wi-Fi (as opposed to Ethernet)..... Better (more expensive) streamers have a more stable digital output, which may be an option as well.
If your streamer has a USB out, there are some good inexpensive DDCs available...... (What kind of miffs me however is why these DDCs only convert USB inputs, but not S/PDIF inputs.)
have SPDIF input e.g. Genesis Digital Lens.
Edits: 04/23/25
I have really good dac, cd transport and high-end streamer. I put loads of money to improve streaming - and cds are still better... The main offender as I see it - degradation of signal in internet connection... Jitter, noise etc. Many companies suggest solutions to the problem - some better, some less.
I noticed in your profile that your interconnect cables are either Nordost or Linn Silver. While these cables will probably work very well with an analog source, I would not use them with a digital source. I suggest trying a copper based interconnect on your dac and not a "fast" sounding one like Nordost.
Well progress has been made thanks to some suggestions, it seems the samples I had listened to were all remixes. It's hard to find classic rock pink floyd etc. that isn't a remix. But now that I have dad an hour to myself, I have played some not remixed and the sound is hugely improved. Similar to my CD but slightly different.
This will be quite fine it's just not as simple as I would like to find.
If your streamer is Tidal Connect compatible the you might like using the Tidal app for navigation is easier.
Gsquared
> This will be quite fine it's just not as simple as I would like to find.
I think the control app is the important thing to get right if you want to find the music you are looking for.
The OP reaction to streaming sound quality seems about standard, given numerous posts on the forum.
Perhaps a good decision factor is that if you just love tech, or feel the need for more tech, then streaming will provide you with that joy.
If you are focused on sound quality, rather than convenience or cool/trendy, then I am not sure that streaming is quite ready for prime time.
The decision on streaming depends on how you want to spend your time, and your listening objectives.
Well said. I think LOL
Try using John Ellson's FiiO 19 unit.
It's probably much more cost effective than any streaming device . You always need an excellent WiFi connection. I don't bother with this nonsense.
I have a suitable record and CD collection. I've been digitizing my records and listen to them from a USB storage unit on a cheap Sony DVD.Sounds like vinyl to me.
Pablo14
You aren't doing something right.
I have a Lumin streamer connnected by Ethernet to a switch, then to my network. I have music loaded on a hard drive in a NAS and stream to a Denafrips Pontus II. I also stream Qobuz. Both sources sound excellent and exceeded cds from a transport.
I will say that Qobuz sounds better to my ears than Tidal, but it's not a huge difference.
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
Most are 24-96, but there are some 24-192 ones as well.
what is being compared. Tidal over Ethernet/WiFi via Audio Lab 7000n vs. Rega Planet CD transport using same DAC?
Edits: 04/20/25
I wasn't really comparing to anything directly, but it isn't up to the standard I am used to from my VPI turntable so maybe that's not fair or my Audiolab cd7000 transport through the same gustard dac.
It does some things quite nice open sound and detailed but just not balnced. However, the tracks sample were all remastered so I need to find some that are not remixes which tend to be less listenable than the original.
If one is trying to compare the sound quality of streamed music to physical CDs, it is critical that the same versions be used.
Unfortunately, many of the major classic rock/pop band albums have been remastered so many times that it is nearly impossible to know if the album you are streaming is exactly the same as the one on your physical CD. However, if you switch to bands & performers that are not as famous, the odds go up dramatically that the streaming version will be the same as your CD.
I have a decent sized local collection (about 64K tracks ripped from CD, converted from LP, downloaded, plus some original material) and a Qobuz subscription. I've not been able to tell a difference between my local stuff and streaming when making a comparison and am confident the releases are the same.
Yes, I think I am catching on.
Understand that digital sources vary widely in quality just as do analog sources. A U Turn Orbit is not the same as a Clearaudio Statement.Took me a while to find a digital source that matched or exceeded my VPI/Souther TQ-1 rig. Don't limit your choices to a standard fenced in by late 70s optical media.
but just not balnced.
In which aspect(s)? Tonally? Dynamically? I note there are Gustard DACs ranging in price from $78 to $3k . Lots of potential difference there.
You'll find much more useful information in appropriate forums like Digital and PC Audio.
It might take some time and experimentation to find what you really want.
Edits: 04/20/25
Thanks, I can try the digital forum wasn't sure where to post. It seems my question maybe more rhetorical or opinion than simply digital. The gustard is the R26 model R2R ladder dac design can't remember the price but seems like it was under 2000.00
The audiolab 7000n streamer has an ess based dac built in but it's a bit of work to pull stuff out to plug it in and I have never really liked the ESS chip sound.
Really I didn't want to mess with this as much as I have already . I just wanted decent and simple set up so I can listyen to songs that I may not want the entire album or mau only listen to once.
BTW I think I need to update my profile.
Ah, a much nicer Gustard model using discrete outputs instead of chip based op amps.
The audiolab 7000n streamer has an ess based dac built in but it's a bit of work to pull stuff out to plug it in and I have never really liked the ESS chip sound.
Understand that what you hear is as much (if not more) determined by its analog output stage (like a phono preamp) than the DAC chip employed. Note that the 1983 Toslink optical standard has inherently (much) higher jitter than coaxial or USB.
Try the analog outputs on the Audiolab streamer and see if it is acceptable to you.
Yes I will try direct to analogue but there some time needed to pull stuff out to plug in interconnects. However The audiolab is an ess chip which I have always found rough on the top end. That's why I settled on an R2R ladder dac.
I have CD transport -> DAC setup
Analog and relax sound.
Here are the CD transports I am using (from best to worst)
1. Sony X229ES with DIY coax SPDIF
2. Tascam CD-200 with DIY coax SPDIF
3. Rotel RCD-855
4. Cambridge CXC V2 (will have a DIY output very soon)
Get yourself a Denon or Onkyo multi-disc cd changer, load it up with 5 or 6 discs, set it to shuffle play, push play and be happy. Cheap too. Plus
I think both units have digital out so you can use your own dac.
Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone
"Get yourself a Denon or Onkyo multi-disc cd changer, load it up with 5 or 6 discs, set it to shuffle play, push play and be happy."The Philips CDC935 is a unicorn...... It's a CD changer that to me (with a good aftermarket output stage) sounds better than all but the very best single-disc CD players and (if used as a transport) CD transports..... Still available used on eBay.
I use these changers exclusively for CD playback, used as both a transport and with a modified output stage. (The stock output stage is the only thing holding this back.)
Edits: 04/22/25
Compared with a streamer service, your 6 CDs may be part of your 1000 CD collection, whereas a streamer using Qobuz or Tidal has ten million plus CDs for you to select from. Which would I prefer? The answer is pretty obvious.
It also offer tens of thousands of the world's radio stations and the likes of Radio Paradise for high quality, chat and ad-free music.
I have a decent audiolab transport and Gustard r2r dac. But sometimes I want something I don't own but don't want to buy it for the one time I might listen to it.
" I have just put in and Audio lab 7000n streamer connected to my gustard dac (used for CD play)."
I'm curious and just trying to better understand your setup. I'm not sure what you mean here. Is your Gustard DAC connected to the Audiolab 7000n streamer -AND- a CD player/transport?
Since the Audiolab 7000n lacks a USB output for audio how are you driving the Gustard DAC? Over COAX or OPTICAL?
The Audiolab 7000n additionally has its own internal DAC with a pair of analog RCA outputs. Have you tried these RCA outputs from the Audiolab instead of the Gustard DAC?
Are you streaming Tidal directly from within the Audiolab 7000n or are you 'sending' music to the Audiolab from your smartphone?
And just out of curiosity are you running everything over Wifi or a hardwired Ethernet network?
The dac has a coax and a optical. The Audiolab is using optical to the Gustard R26 R2R style dac. Streaming is from Ethernet to the Audiolab and then the dac. Phone is used for Selecting titles only.
I'd suggest you avoid optical if at all possible. Coax better and AES better than that, but AES only found in higher quality DAC's etc.
Why not borrow a good streamer that includes a DAC and possibly a preamp, or even a good all-in-one (that's the route I've taken) and then you may start to appreciate the advantages and sound quality of streaming.
Tidal is generally CD quality with some albums in MQA but you need that decoded to be of benefit and MQA is considered by many as a bit of a dead duck. Qobuz offers CD quality plus lots of albums in genuine high quality that most modern DACs can take advantage of.
If you find re-jigged albums, you can be sure that the originals will also be available on Qobuz or Tidal too.
The user interface is vital for best access to streamer services. Roon is arguably the best but you need hardware and a subscription to use it. Next is maybe BluOS that was devised by Bluesound / NAD, but is being adopted by several other brands. There are so many poor apps that may put you off streaming services too!
"I'd suggest you avoid optical if at all possible. Coax better and AES better than that, but AES only found in higher quality DAC's etc."
Disagree..... I get the best results with optical.....
In fact, there is now a cheap optical cable (link) that I believe performs really well.....
"Disagree..... I get the best results with optical....."
Only because you're the one dissenting rebel among your audio peers. ;-)
I don't think the audiolab 7000n streamer is cheap. It retails over 1100.00 here in Canada. But it doesn't have AES but goes have an ESS Sabre ES9038Q2M Reference DAC built in. I have never really liked the ESS sound the top end is really not clean on them. So I thought the Gustard R26 R2R dac would be better. Will try it soon enough to compare.
The Gustard dac is a pretty decent Dac
My NAD M33 has the ESS Sabre ES9038PRO DAC and this is highly regarded and sound brilliant throughout the frequency range. Whether the PRO version differs from the Q2M I have no idea. I gathered your streamer was just that, but better if it includes a good DAC.
It does have the ESS Sabre ES9038Q2M. so when time allows, I will try it direct to analogue. that requires some acrobatic equipment movement to get it plugged in. My Gustad R26 dac is at the top so easy to connect to.
USB connectivity for supporting a wider range of digital formats and not incurring sonic compromises.
While the 7000n isn't *cheap*, it tries to be everything. For the same budget there are arguably better sounding streamers that don't also contain a limited DAC. Also, computer based transports eliminate the single format limitation of using a CD player. My media server contains half a dozen different formats played across a range of streamers around the house and garage. And supports internet based subscription services (I use Qobuz) and radio stations which greatly facilitate finding new music.
I have playlists that mix local and internet based content seamlessly.
I tried to find streamers without all the extras but in the sub 1500.00 dollar range It was hard to do and get also a decent sound quality.
Suggestion would be appreciated.
Thanks
I'm not convinced that your streamer sounds bad. I think it's a matter of juggling a couple things. Perhaps try the DAC that is built into the streamer just to compare against the Gustard. IMHO the chip type in the DAC has less impact on sound quality than the implementation and all important analog stage. I have owned excellent sounding ESS DACs and others that were duds. But the same goes for other DAC chips.I would also explore whatever settings are available within your streamer and maybe try its COAX out to the Gustard instead of OPTICAL. You have a few variables to play with.
And of course Tidal itself. I haven't used it in a long time but there might be some Tidal (and Tidal App) settings that can affect sound quality.
Edits: 04/21/25
I would highly recommend trying a Wiim pro plus or better model. The sound is excellent and the app is seamless and easy to learn. It has multiple options for eq and has very good room correction.
It has gapless playback if you want it. I've never had music cut out, it just works all the time.
It plays with Qobuz, Tidal, Radio Paradise, Amazon Music, Apple Airplay, pretty much everything but Apple music. You can use your outboard dac if you prefer but it has a decent dac inside.
No AES connections on my pro plus.
I've found that Qobuz sounds much better than Tidal generally speaking, but it's been a few years since I tried Tidal.
The Wiim is just a little plastic black box, so if you want something fancy look elsewhere. It's not really noticeable on a rack of components.
there are many available on the market within your budget. My Sonore ultraRendu fits that range and has excellent sound quality through my pretty good system. Click my moniker for more details and pics if you're interested. It contains nothing superfluous to the playback of music nor has an exaggerated case size like the Audiolab. Yes, does require an external power supply of your choice. Compare...
View YouTube Video
While not quite as good, a simple Raspberry Pi4 with case and good power supply can be had for under $200. I maintain one for fun and backup purposes for the main system. This is an older RPi3 used in the garage. Just a bit of one time DIY assembly and OS configuration involved. I've been using *free* LMS for over ten years with my collection of audio and video endpoints and no longer use physical media. Far more flexible and convenient.
That's why I think following the PC forum for devices like this can be helpful.
I'm sorry to hear that you are not getting on with streaming. It SHOULD be virtually identical in sound to CD, or better if you use Qobuz' HD albums.I don't know the streamer you're using but it always seems odd to me to buy a stand-alone streamer. The electronic module of a streamer is so small, it should really be tucked inside a DAC or preamp or integrated. Then it would share a possibly better power supply, etc and you can do away with interconnects. What interconnect are you using incidentally?
You really should persevere, particularly as you get older because you can do away with the faff of getting up every time you want to change the music! For me, switching from CD to streaming was as enlightening as switching from vinyl to CD a few decades before. Once you get going, you won't understand why you didn't change tack much earlier! Good luck
Edits: 04/20/25
"I'm sorry to hear that you are not getting on with streaming. It SHOULD be virtually identical in sound to CD, or better if you use Qobuz' HD albums."
I think what prevents streaming from equaling CD, at least from my experiences with lossless (non-streamed) compression, is that something is lost when decoding lossless compression such as FLAC in real time.
What's weird is I now have very satisfying sound with streaming (using a reclocker is a must), it's only when I listen to CD of the same music do I realize that the CD sounds better.
The sound of CD has more of a "physical presence"...... Sound more like real instruments in real space..... I just got a Hybrid CD/SACD of the new RCA Strauss "An Alpine Symphony" with Paavo Jarvi and NHK (phenomenal performance), and in spite of the streamer playing at 192kHz (the CD plays at 44.1), the sheer physical scale of the music is still captured better with CD playback.
It's kind of like comparing CD to vinyl, which has a similar difference..... But the "inferior" medium still sounds really, really good.
I am not sure how to tell the source quality. But It seems Tidal should be hi rez always. I use the Play Fi app recommended for the audiolab. It haven't found a way to verify the source. The tidal App does have that ability but then the stream is coming through the phone.
I will say the Pink Floyd and Emmerson lake and palmer were remixes so that is always an issue. they always seem to be tilted to the upper frequencies when compared to the original.
The sound is clean and detailed and very open just aggressive on the top end.
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