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you allocate to those 2? I'd lean 75/25, speakers.
Follow Ups:
I am a poor schmuck. I have friends that (literally) have $5Million (you read that right) listening rooms. That guys brother, also rich and also an audiophile, has perhaps $25k in his entire setup.
Although I don't know it all, and possibly know very little, if you gave me $20,000 for speakers + amp, I would NOT under any circumstances purchase an expensive setup. I would spend the $20k finding the stuff that sounds best in my listening room.
This might involve you considering your biases. Are you biased towards tube amps? How about SS amps? Fine, go find a used one that you like a lot, say $3,000. Great, got the used amp of your dreams? Now start purchasing speakers until you find the ones that sound the best on that amp in _your_ listening room.
Yes, its that simple. Its the reason the $25,000 system owned by the $5Million dollar brothers system sounds great, and the 5mil system is just "meh". IMHO.
You don't start with a budget, you start with defining the needs, and then the hardware to meet those needs.
The necessary expenditure numbers will follow. If it's too much for the client/buyer to handle, you look for places where costs can be reduced with minimal negative impact on meeting the needs.
Clearly, you've never designed sound systems.
****
We are inclusive and diverse. But dissent will not be tolerated.
Nt
Building and upgrading systems to a budget is pretty common real world practice.
For real. ;) Don't misunderstand - typically, people have an idea of how much they CAN spend, but until the needs are defined, they won't know how much they HAVE TO spend.
The OP asked a nonsensical question. How can a buyer possibly know how to allocate money between speakers and amps without even having decided what speakers they want, or if a certain speaker is even appropriate for their needs?
Back in the day, when I was selling hifi equipment, there would often be a guy coming in saying "I want fifteen inch woofers". Ok, do you want really good 15" woofers, or cheap 15" woofers? "And I want a 100 watt amplifier." That's why I always liked designing/selling/installing commercial systems - at least the clients didn't pretend to know what they needed/wanted.
****
We are inclusive and diverse. But dissent will not be tolerated.
OK I agree with that. The question as it stood lacked context to give a universal meaningful answer.
Though still not sure what the "P" represents in his case.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
How much are we willing to spend is more appropriate.
In my case, I've had trouble spending more than two grand on an individual component. Yet, it adds up pretty quickly.
Isn't that essentially the same thing?
Of course a nice tube amp and sensitive horn speakers.
Bill
.
The old LINN foot tapping musicality with the huge Naim and LINN Kan?
Cheers
Bill
.
Nt
What is the room? That's the most important.
But also $20k isn't as much fun to play fantasy.
But you could do B&W Speakers + McINtosh which is always fun and you get pretty blue dials.
(But if it's a windfall you personally got, then AWESOME!!)
====
"You are precisely as big as what you love and precisely as small as what you allow to annoy you." ~ R A Wilson
to get a pair of these plus the open baffle woofers and amps to run them.
Gsquared
How much are they? I didn't find the price on the web page
here where you find the dipole subs start at $7k.
If you must have a woofer/subwoofer with a planar, make it a dipole to match the directivity and not compromise coherence. Naturally, my first choice would be a pair of Dr. West's UB-1 subs. ;)
OK, back to his question
The amp game has changed of late, thanks to GaN technology. The LSA Voyager GaN 350 will easily drive most speakers and sound great doing so (MSRP $3000)
I'd used that cash to build an add-on dedicated listening room; roughly 30'x20'.
I feel you.
...and get two of these:
I'd lean 50/25/25 starting with a psychiatrist, because if you need to spend that much money and you don't know how to spend it, you need help right away!
Now do it with $2000
How about:
speakers Sony SSCS5 $168/pr but usually on sale at deep discount
Amp NAD C320BEE $400
DAC Topping BC3 $70
Blu-Ray (Transport) Sony UDP-X700M $200
TT/preamp Fluance RT81 $250
for $1100?
Spend the rest on software
Plus $100 for mogami cables
You could spend more on speakers eg ELAC or Fluance or Emotiva
$200 on the amp, $800 on the speakers.
$19,000 on finding someone to enjoy them with, because if you post 65,000 times in 16 years and ask silly questions like this, you are obviously spending too much time by yourself.
After 16 years and 65,000 posts (really?). I would get a new hobby, maybe a girlfriend, perhaps try stepping out into the sunlight.
Or it would be more like 80,000.
d
And I only have somewhat over 20,000, so I have a ways to go! ;-)
the original question might have been relevant to you.
I'm one who thinks the most money should be in source equipment and source material. As far as a ratio of amplification (amp/pre) to speaker goes I'd say 50/50 for best sound - but for sure there will be exceptions one way or the other.
I've been more often surprised by how good a an expensive system can sound with modest speakers connected than I have been with modest equipment connect to expensive speakers.
But that's just based my experience which are much less than some of the others who post around here.
and had good sound through my old system of Belles and Sonus Faber. For fun, I repeated it throughout the years with similarly good results. Of course, that didn't stop me from endlessly switching out transports, DACs, wires, etc.
and a pair of Levinson amps
I would not allocate $20K to whatever your question is.
I'm completely satisfied with a DIY SE 6BQ5 console-pull amp, DIY SE 6SN7 preamp, DIY full-range driver speakers, McIntosh mc275, McIntosh C22, Acoustat 2+2 and Model 3 speakers....and the rest is just along for the ride.
Your interest may vary but the results will be same. (Byrd 2020)
I can't compete with the dead. (Buck W. 2010)
Cowards can't be heroes. (Byrd 2017)
Why don't catfish have kittens? (Moe Howard 1937)
Twenty thousand is a lot of money for amps and speakers. I might spend about that much if I could easily afford it but for sure I kind of doubt I would really appreciate the difference (unless I moved to a different listening space) and wanted full bass and louder volumes.
I really enjoy my gear, which I one time I thought would retail for a bit over $20 grand with the TT setup making up the biggest chunk of the expenditure. And no I didn't spend that much having bought a couple of my components demo and a couple of them used and as weird as it sounded I knew they would work perfectly in the system I was setting up before I bought them. Lucky me.
Matter of fact I had more money to spend on it and decided it was good enough so I built a 2nd system instead.
But it's still a fun question.
You asked a straight forward question about alocating $20K towards *SPEAKERS and AMPLIFICATION.* For all we know it's a thought experiment. Something to generate a discussion about speakers, amps and cost effectiveness at a price point.
And then you get people telling you to invest in the stock market, real estate and an private education for kids you may or may not even have. It's just spam and trolling. It's not clever or witty. Most of all it's not on topic.
If I had posted the headline I really wanted to post, "this is yet another reason why I hate audiophiles" I would get the same dumb ass literalist knee jerk reaction so...this is yet another thing that annoys me about some audiophiles on audiophile forums. (thinking if I need any other qualifiers to avoid some folks getting their panties in a bunch)
Now to avoid making a post just like the ones I find obnoxious. Some points that I think would be relevant. It's tough to answer your question in a void. Without knowing what the existing system and room is it's pretty tough to pick speakers. It would also help to know what the system goals are.
If a friend came to me with this question I would start with those questions. What do you already have? What is the room? Is it a dedicated room or multi-purpose room? What are the limitations on speaker positioning and listener positioning? Will more than one person being listening at any given time? What do you want from your system in the way of performance? That's where I would start.
think is the most important piece of a system. I narrowed it down for simplicity--- there are too many possible sources.Many bemoan the "amazing" sum of $20 thousand, yet a new car not uncommonly fetches quite a bit more from the average American. Not much of a hobbyist if one's priorities don't reach the level of a vehicle...
Edits: 03/14/22
start paying ABOVE MRSP for new audio equipment like (too) many Americans
are doing these days with cars, so comparing apples to oranges ain't much of
a thought experiment methinks as far as dollars go.Above MRSP! It just ain't American!
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure
Edits: 03/14/22
Nothing here has changed.
Nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there.
I made exactly those points in my post......Otherwise? You maybe simply listing stuff you already LIKE without knowing anything about the OP or his goals or current equipment.
Too much is never enough
Why are you here? ..... [-;
I am here and have been because of my interest and passion for high end audio.
Sadly it's a legitimate question because these forums have become very poor sources for legitimate info on audio. OTOH there still are knowledgable people here that offer up good info. The SNR on the info is very low so it requires a lot of filtering
And of course I think defense of factual information and rational thought are worth while endevours in a hobby that has been over run with so much bullshit. So I do try to offer an alternative to that bullshit for those who might be interested in that.
"Sadly it's a legitimate question because these forums have become very poor sources for legitimate info on audio. OTOH there still are knowledgable people here that offer up good info. The SNR on the info is very low so it requires a lot of filtering"
While I agree somewhat, I just appreciate the good information I get here..... ;-]
Scott is right, everyone else is wrong. Isn't there a name for that? Hmmmm, Oh, yeah, it's called megalomania. With a side order of Inferiority-superiority complex mixed in.
Was there any particular argument being made that you are refering to? Or is this just some piece of random good advice?
Scott's logical fallacies (of course it helps to know what a logical fallacy is)1. For all we know it's a thought experiment.
2. Something to generate a discussion about speakers, amps and cost effectiveness at a price point.
3. And then you get people telling you to invest in the stock market, real estate and an private education for kids you may or may not even have. It's just spam and trolling.
4. If I had posted the headline I really wanted to post, "this is yet another reason why I hate audiophiles" I would get the same dumb ass literalist knee jerk reaction so... (this one is probably not a logical fallacy but it works like a logical fallacy). Note to self: I question whether liberalist is even a word, but who the hell knows, maybe in Vegas. Maybe that's a Las Vegas code word.
Edits: 03/13/22
Nah.
Tin has 60,000 posts on AA.
We know.
It's a Troll.
d
Nt
If you catch yourself thinking quick find a thread where you can rough in the thought. Works for me.
"And of course I think defense of factual information and rational thought are worth while endevours in a hobby that has been over run with so much bullshit. So I do try to offer an alternative to that bullshit for those who might be interested in that."
Pure comic genius.
From the mouth of a pure scam artist. Obviously a rational perspective that values factual information is the last thing a snake oil salesman wants on any public forum. It's bad for business. Could that be why you have become my personal stalker on audio asylum?
Words spew out of your mouth like putrid green split pea soup with ham and decaying bacon, are you sure you're not possessed? Out Devil! Get thee behind me Satan! It looks like you need to get fixed up with a Priest and a team of deprogrammers.
Edits: 03/15/22
(to the Troll who lives under a fairy tale bridge) should be to put as much money as you can into the speakers. At least that's what I recommend. You want speakers that are able to CLEARLY reveal the differences in other components otherwise you shooting in the dark and maybe with blanks.
People should figure out their wallets and then budget accordingly. And don't forget that the speakers are usually the largest and heaviest component and will cost a shitload to ship and be a royal PITA, so do it ONCE when you buy them. Speakers can have the worst resale value also.
The new Ganfet tech is showing promise and it looks like it won't cost much to ship if you don't like it.
I've married my Quad ESL57's for 45 years and will leave my cold dead hands unless I get higher permission
Nt
Imagine if you will a troll trolled by a troll trolled by a troll trolled by a troll.
Edits: 03/13/22
...
Edits: 03/13/22 03/13/22
And asks the same stir the pot questions year in year out and has no interest in your answers
He gets newbies like you to swallow his bait and even defend him until they all figure out they were played
See how it got you to start calling out "annoying audiophiles" .
It's what he lives for and you fell right in. Don't worry your just the 378th person to get played and there will be a 379th next time.
n
d
Which, given the age of quite a few of us inmates, might still make him a newbie.
"Annoying audiophiles" is NOT a new topic for him, BTW.
And yes, Tinear can get... repetitive.
Really, this thread is just today's Groundhog Thread of The Day.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
"He gets newbies like you to swallow"
ROTFLOL!!!
And FWIW how long have you been trolling tinear?
whenever I catch him acting like a fool. And I get it. It's Tinear. He often sets himself up for it. I'm not opposed to people having fun on the forum.
all apologies to anyone who was called out on my previous post
So many ways to go as to 'beg' the question....
You could go high sensitivity speaker, like the La Scala or Corner Horn and add an amp of 10 to 20 a side.....something from Decware.....Call it 13K$ for the speakers and 4k$ for the amp....
OR?
Go the other way? Low sensitivity panels and LOTS of power.
Who would know where to begin, especially not knowing much or anything about the values of the requester.....
Room matters too. Several dedicated outlets? Is it a large room of say.....With a larger room of say....OVER 4000 cubic feet, you might even need a SUB, depending on speakers.
Too much is never enough
Not to mention the source...... Which I say is the most important part of the audio chain......
To give you an idea, I listened to several expensive systems today..... The only option was streaming..... (I brought a CD to the place and couldn't even play it.) Almost all of the playback files were of FLAC format..... I thought the sources compromised the playback, I was never impressed with any playback of FLAC files decoded in real time.... (It's a different story if converted to WAV in a separate step.)
Even more important than the speakers, I think if the source isn't right, no downstream system, even North of 100 grand, can fix it.
Yes....
I was limitiing myself to amp / speaker at the OPs request
However? 'Source First' is a VERY valid viewpoint and used by many GOOD system builders....
I mean SYSTEM not a collection of 'stuff'.....
Too much is never enough
pay for one semester of private elementary school for your kid and buy an iPhone with ear buds.
Ciao,
"Starting in the middle of a musical sentence and moving in both directions at once." - John Coltrane.
Cpwill
$3K on speakers (Ref 3A DeCapo I) and $2K on amp (Transcendent Sound T8-LN OTL tube amp).
From my listening for the last decade I would say the system limitation is the sources now, not the speaker/amp setup.
If I could afford to spend another $1K I would buy a new FIIO dac/player for source. But so far, nothing beats my Centrance 24/96 Class A Dacport via either PC or RPI.
Don't wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.
Mark Twain
I'm a speaker first guy but the vintage garage system is decidedly upside down in terms of investment.When I first purchased the main speakers and amps, the ratio was 3:1 while replacement cost of the same models 15 years later is now about 2:1.
With the garage system, I have more invested in cables than the New Advents. ;)
Edits: 03/12/22
Nt
If I lost everything and started over, I'd probably find the best bang-for-the buck (DIY) high-efficiency speakers, and seek good single ended tube amplification...... I'd hope that I have at least $10,000 left over to invest.......
I have to agree. I'd be happy with Cornwall 4's and a nice SET. Plays any genre with ease and gets one back to listening to music. IOW, back where we started in the first place.
Hard times are coming.
A pair of Magnepan 3.7i is about $8k
A BAT VK3500 or Pass INT250 is about $12k
Of course, you can buy much more expensive loudspeakers and much less
expensive amplification.
Follow Kal R's advice below.
Whether or not you can observe a thing depends upon the theory you use. It is the theory which decides what can be observed. - Albert Einstein
It all depends on room size, music choices and preferred volume levels. If your sources are where you want them to be and you're just concerned with speakers and amplification, you're ear will make the call. You might like $5K speakers driven by $15K in amplification....or vice versa. IOW, throw allocation formulas out the window.
Nt
I could hardly wait to answer this worn out question for the 37th time!
Speaker size and type will dictate what kind of amplification you will need (and how much that will cost). Your allocations for source component(s) and various accessories might be the only constants.No step two before step one.
Edits: 03/12/22
Based on the assumption that the budget is fixed and without much wiggle room, I'd pick the speakers, first and foremost, to begin the process.
Then I'd determine if I can afford a suitable amp with the remaining funds.
If not (and only then), I'd reconsider the speaker choice to allow enough funds for a suitable amp.
Rinse and repeat.
(All hypothetical.)
Manley Snappers ($9.3k) and a pair of Tannoy Churchills. The last pair I saw were going for $8.5k used.
WW
"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.
My "issue" right now are my Thiel speakers that I love but they limit my amp choice in that they require a good amount of power. 100-wpc would be borderline. A pair of large Tannoys would be great and open up many more amp choices.
which to build a system, imo.
No exact percentage but I would allocate more to the speakers.
The mix would obviously depend on what speakers you need to drive and whether you want tubes, traditional Class A AB, or Class D amplification.
If I had to allocate I'm guessing around the ballpark of 60/40 speaker/amp, but that's for me. YMMV.
say if you could JUST squeeze out a little above your budget you can get...
Personally I'd say start with the speakers and the rest will fall into place.
75/25, 80/20, 60/40, 50/50... doesn't matter.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
"75/25, 80/20, 60/40, 50/50... doesn't matter. " The hypothetical doesn't matter but with cash in hand, MY allocation would fall around 60/40 but this will obviously vary by individual.
But in general, I would spend more on the speakers.
too many variables to give a meaningful answer
"too many variables to give a meaningful answer"
Agreed.
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