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I am talking audiophile hifi shows only - not at local dealers - the idea being that you heard a huge number of systems in a single day or weekend and were struck by how a particular system stood out against the others
I am also talking major shows - not a small local audiophile "get together"
I kick it off
1) several speakers which used ceramic ACCUTON drivers really stood out as being superb quality - mated to high powered solid state amps
2) MBL and German Physiks omnidirectional speakers for astounding soundstage presentation - both used high power solid state amps
3) Audio note pure silver system driven by their Triode amp / preamp
Follow Ups:
I cannot say that I was particularly impressed by the sound of any system at a hifi show. Many of them had one or two outstanding characteristics, such as deep and well-defined bass, or "sparkle".Among the best non-studio systems I've heard were the Magico factory listening room (the S7, with unknown upstream gear), John Curl's home system, and Siegfried Linkwitz's home system. They all beat the pants off anything I've heard at a show, the last of which I attended was the California Audio Show in the Summer of 2018.
It's essential to be aware that the recordings play a critcal role in how a system sounds.
****
We are inclusive and diverse. But dissent will not be tolerated.
Edits: 11/18/21
nt
That may be true VV. At least by his reputation. But how did you know which systems were set up by him? Unless it included a product he repped, as when he was distributor for Avantgarde.
I attended numerous shows over a span of more than 20 years (CES Vegas, Stereophile, THE Show, etc.) and I don't remember ever seeing a sign indicating who set up a particular system.
"The only cats worth anything are the cats who take chances. Sometimes I play things I never heard myself." Thelonious Monk
Silly statement about signs.
Otherwise, I was one of his Avantgarde dealers back the day. He actually speaks about a particularly difficult room in his book, Get Better Sound, which resulted in a best of show and signing several dealers up. I was one of those dealers.
Two years ago I attended Jim's RoomPlay Reference session in his Cummings, GA studio.
In each case, entirely different systems and rooms. Still two of the best sounding systems I've ever heard. The valuable lesson for me was, as long as the gear is half decent, the best set up guys can work miracles. Michael Green of Room Tunes used to take a cheap system and amaze folks.
So, regardless of who does the set up, my main point is that the better sounding rooms at shows have far more to do with the quality of system set up than the gear itself.
I know he's done this for other manufacturers but I can't name them. If you are really interested, contact Jim and ask.
As I said, I know Jim has a great reputation for set up. But your post implied knowing many of the rooms he may have worked. So I was seriously wanting to know the basis for your statement.
And we are on the same page regarding the importance of set up compared to the gear itself.
"The only cats worth anything are the cats who take chances. Sometimes I play things I never heard myself." Thelonious Monk
I apologize, I should have worded my original post better.
Also being a M3 lover, you might enjoy this tidbit. The Jim Avantgarde demo that sold me on the product line, now grossly overpriced in the states, was a strange coincidence. Being a Hammond player (my favorite instrument), repair & restoration guy, I know the sound of a well maintained Hammond. I sat down for the demo and Jim played Ice Cream Man from Ronnie Earl and the Broadcaster's great album Grateful Heart: Blues & Ballads. One of my favorite organ solos and I know it well. Long story short, the best recorded Hammond playback I'd ever heard up to that point by a long shot. What were the odds of Jim picking exactly what I needed to hear?
BTW, my personal M3, is the first year they were made and the year I was born, 1955; still using a field coil speaker. I'm partial to the smaller Leslie 45 (modified electronically for three speeds instead of two). A really nice combo. Green Onions!
VV, you are not the first to guess wrong on my moniker. Most assume the BMW model, but some guess the Leica model, the Audio Note model, and now an electronic organ. Sorry but it is a musical reference to three favored jazz musicians.
Now you can clarify for me. I thought the popular Hammond was the B3, or is that mainly by jazz artists? Is there a type of music where the M3 is preferred?
So thanks again. ;^)
"The only cats worth anything are the cats who take chances. Sometimes I play things I never heard myself." Thelonious Monk
LOL, always thought a fellow Hammond lover. Don't know Leicas and BMW. What, Mingus, Monk, Miles?
The A, B & C Hammonds are the large consoles. The B-3 (band) is the most popular because it's the most "portable" with the spindle legs. Not uncommon for touring rock bands to cut the bottom off (other than Lee Michaels and Steve Winwood, no rock player uses the pedals). I'm not hauling these around anymore so I have a 1958 C-3 (church) with a really nice cabinet. Exactly the same as B-3 but a lot less demand so much less costly.
The other category is the spinets; smaller versions like my three favorites, all vacuum tube, the M3 (think Booker T; chopped his, looks like it's sitting on a dinette table when he performs), L100 (Keith Emerson throwing these around and stabbing with daggers on stage; B3 is too big to toss around) and M100 (Whiter Shade of Paie for example). Lots of great music recorded with M3s, L100s (popular in the UK during the classic rock period because of it's lower cost) and M100s.
Jimmy Smith, the legendary jazz organist, originally popularized the Hammond with the B-3. Note, jazz Hammond players always use the pedals unlike rock and blues players; eliminating the bass player. A notable exception would be Traffic's John Barleycorn LP where Winwood is playing all the bass lines on his B-3 pedals.
Finally, to get the truly great Hammond sound we all love, they must be used with Leslie tone cabinets for the rotating speaker effect and tone. I like to use both a Leslie and a Hammond tone cabinet which has reverb that the good tube Leslies don't. I believe Tony Monaco, a great player from Ohio, does the same.
Sorry, probably more information than you needed. Once you get me started with Hammonds, it's hard to stop...
there's certainly differences in drawbar configurations and functions between models worth touching on ... and the fascinating terminology used for them that borrows from the lexicon of pipe organs amongst other musical terminology
you would seem to be deal for expanding on this since it's so essential to their sound
just for grins a link to some [or maybe all?] of those settings:
with regards,
Yes, 16, 8, 4 etc all refer to the length of organ pipes. Laurens Hammond (started as a "soundless" clock maker, I collect those also) was a mechanical genius and used all pipe organ terminology; basically wanted to invent a "portable" pipe organ. Both the clocks and organs depended on his synchronous motor design to keep accurate time and stay in tune. That requires perfect 60Hz AC. It's interesting how that is maintained in the US and the reason all the power stations on the isolated TX grid shut down almost simultaneously during that terrible cold snap of 2021 (not wind and solar, haha, nice try).A great place to start is Jimmy Smith, the genius that started it all. The left hand setting, lower manual, is 848000000 (for bass lines). I've heard other sources say 838 or 858 are the "preferred" settings. The upper manual was 888000000, C3, percussion on soft, third, fast.
Then there are the Leslie(s) and their speeds; off, slow, fast. In Jimmy's case almost always just left on slow.
For more, just search "hammond drawbar settings" and you will be endlessly entertained if you are a nerd like me.
Open up your mind, in pours the trash. - Meat Puppets
Edits: 11/13/21
here's a nice jam with Larry Young & Hendrix that I had on vinyl which I haven't been able to score on CD yet ... guess I still need to look for it streaming too
nice post man, thanks!
with regards,
In fact, I appreciated it.
I've enjoyed all the references you mentioned. Well, except for Winwood's singing, but that's a different story.
As a non-musician I didn't know about the different models so I found it interesting.
And oh yes, you got the jazz musicians right! Plus interesting you listed Mingus first and Miles third, most folks would have reversed those I believe.
"The only cats worth anything are the cats who take chances. Sometimes I play things I never heard myself." Thelonious Monk
It's a fun topic especially since keyboard players usually aren't front men; playing in the shadows, supporting the main artist. I don't sing and am not particularly creative so that's the perfect place for me, either keyboards or bass.
My favorite is Benmont Tench. Most folks don't even notice he's there until you take him out and suddenly there is a big hole in the music. Almost never takes a solo. Although, I'll never reach that level, it's what I aspire to.
I really need to shutdown my business and get back to woodshedding...
I'm glad you enjoyed the info and thanks for the kind words.
Open up your mind, in pours the trash. - Meat Puppets
Everyone should LOVE the Hammond, the sound is phenomenal even to this day and beyond. Actually everything about it is a phenom except the transport. I played in a band with a keys player who used to show off his Kurzweil hammond sound, but out of a PA speaker the sampling sound was...eh. I told him you got to play the real deal with a Leslie and then feel the shame.
I tried to buy one a few years ago but the prices had skyrocketed so I gave that up.
Yes, hard not to love that sound.
The current Nord keyboard lineup does a good job. Especially if you come from the day when a keyboard player required a large vehicle, at least two strong roadies for: Hammond, Rhodes, Yamaha portable piano, Mellotron, ARP string synthesizer and a Mini-Moog. To add insult to injury, you'd also need to rob a bank to pay for it all.
Now, I get all that and remarkable sound quality with one keyboard that I can carry under my arm and plug straight into the PA. Like my Nord Stage 3.
But still not exactly like the real thing. Kind of like CDs vs LPs.
Open up your mind, in pours the trash. - Meat Puppets
Many years ago, Joseph Audio and Manley teamed up on a demo room. It was unusual: they had timed demos, and only allowed seats to be filled - no standing.
Once in, with very brief remarks by Jeff Joseph, they turned off the lights and played a couple cuts from "Ella and Louis" on some big deal turntable, through the Manley Steelhead, a pair of their 500-watt monoblocks, and Joseph's floorstanders.
At the end, the lights came up, and as we looked around to see who else was wiping away tears, Jeff Joseph said, "That's why we do it."
End of the best demo ever.
WW
"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.
Like you
Audio Note Level 5 system at one show with Gaku Ons as power amp - They had a second smaller priced room that was a runner up. At the California Audio Show 2019 it was the best sound there for the smaller rooms
I chose MBL as best sound at another show (bottom 5 at a previous show - this makes some sense given the Omni-directional design - positioning is critical)
Acapella Audio Arts with Audio Note digital and amplification was the best sound at two shows for me run by The Audio Federation. Any music at any level sounded great.
Some of my other favourites at shows have been:
Usher Audio BE10 speakers
YG Acoustics Anat III (also a bottom room at the same time as MBL at a prior show)
Von Gaylord "Return of the Legend" speakers
Acoustic Zen Crescendo speakers
Silbatone Aporia Full Range
And for a reasonable price SoundKaos impressed me.
My schedule no longer allows me to make the bigger shows - I am more or less stuck with shows in the west that are between the middle of July to the middle of August.
Fortunately, I live in Hong Kong where it's an audio show of sorts every day and all the major brands (usually their flagship offerings) are located here.
In the very narrow sweet spot, the finest stereo reproduction I've ever heard. Two Magtech amps and a high quality DSP processor.
Complete transparency and tonal correctness with strong, seamless transition to transmission line bass.
Unlike most rooms at the show I was able to audition with complex high bandwith orchestral acoustic classical---where deficiencies are most apparent and we have a natural absolute reference.
If it didn't have such constrained listening parameters I'd own them
And it the three very best experiences I have had with high end audio in any setting.And each time it was so good that I had to get as much sweet spot listening in as I could just to make sure it was really as good as i thought.
Oh yeah, that cable post I made that sent the forum into a frenzy? Those cables were for my new Sanders 10Es
the Audio Enchantment rooms manned by Randy Cooley featuring Vandersteen speakers, audio research electronics, and Basis turntables have provided some of the most engaging sound i have heard at shows or anywhere else.
almost always, they were also attended by Richard Vandersteen and A.J. Conti.
...regards...tr
And yes, Randy always gets excellent sound at the shows.
which always sounded sort of synthetic in the demos I heard. I often found (in the time I could still hear ) a "synthetic' to be a hallmark of High End audio systems, no matter the brand.
Funny about MBL I also thought they were magnifico on their own terms even if they did sound harsh on occasions but were unlike anything else.
Audio Note systems were a stand out of any show I attended.
Pleasant surprise was moderately priced Ryan speakers on one show.
I was heavily into horn/he/Set amps at the time but Goldmund Room with Kaiser Kawero Classic sounded simply adorable. If I had the money (immodest amount for very modest system) I'd buy them on the spot. Michel Reverchon was sitting there in the mostly empty room not really willing to suck the dicks of audio reviewers stopping by for one minute to take a quick photo and leave. I was quietly laughing to myself being a witness of intense ball licking all day long and asked Mr. Reverchon if he doesn't care for publicity. He said the company rely on a circle of faithful customers. And when I complimented him that his room has probably the best sound in the show in it's class he said with a charming smile and a thick accent "oh , that's not so difficult to achieve "here" :).
All and all ALL the shows I attended were disappointment from all the angles, the systems (it costs how much??), the people (badly dressed sweaty fatsies trying to make a deal on the show or rachitic shaky retirees on the verge of a heart attack, sleezeball jurnos pimping around like a primadonas.) My biggest regret was never hearing a good performing Horn System. I still hope they exist though.
RMAF 2015 - Grace Design room
Pre: Grace Design M920
Power: Luxman MQ 88
Speakers: Vivid V1.5
CD: Parasound CD1
I remember listening to Grant Green's "Idle Moments". I've heard that track many times. but that day was different. There was something about the sound that was so immersive, so natural that I just disconnected from my surroundings and listened. No room treatments, no power conditioning, no special anything. Just myself and the two exhibitors. After the track ended I realized I'd been holding my breath during the final seconds. One of the guys running the room afterwards said he'd been afraid someone would open the door and ruin the experience. It really was amazing.
Quad electrostatic loudspeakers, especially stacked.
Original Tannoys in large cabinets
1. Gallo and Mapleshade room CES 1997
2. Curl and Crump system at T.H.E. Show in Vegas 2000 with Blowtorch preamp and Bar-B-Q amp. Speakers were the ones from out West somewhere, I provided sub-Hertz iso platform for Number Cruncher DAC. All cabling TG Audio (Crump).
3. Curl and Crump system with JC-1s and those speakers with brain, I supplied 5 iso stands, 2001. All cabling TG Audio (Crump).
4. Tenor-Rockport Hyperion room Tuscany Hotel, 500,000 dollar system, Jena Labs and Shunyata cabling, I supplied 5 iso stands, four for the Tenor amps and one for Audio Aero CD player. 2001. It took five people to reposition one Rockport speaker. The Tuscany was where are the big boys were that year.
5. Golden Sound room T.H.E. Show 2005, promoted Intelligent Chip and demo'd Brilliant Pebbles, provided iso stands for all electronics. This room had the 8 ft. Golden Sound Speakers and Ultra Tweeters.
Edits: 11/06/21 11/06/21 11/06/21 11/06/21 11/07/21
"2. Curl and Crump system at T.H.E. Show in Vegas 2000"
I kept Crump from throwing a VPI turntable into the swimming pool.
VPI was loaning out tables, Elliot was following behind doing the setup. Elliot kind of mess up this one. Crump had no patience for this misbehaving VPI. He was used to his fully setup mega buck table at home.
Elliot had not fully leveled the platter (three set screws in the center of the platter) and didn't get enough damping grease in the arm.
After I fixed it Curl told me that Crump wasn't kidding, he would have thrown it in the pool.
We (Naked Truth Audio) were two doors down showing our OTL amp that year.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I demonstrated the Intelligent Chip for Curl and Crump when they were in the Sound Lab room in 2005. They both said they heard it right away. Many years later Curl recanted, claiming he thought he might have been bamboozled back in 2005 or some such lame excuse. Of course I can certainly understand someone not wishing to be ridiculed for admitting he heard the Intelligent Chip. Lol Crump passed away not long after that show, RIP.
Edits: 11/07/21
I still think your products could have become legendary if you just agreed to have Clark Johnsen bring some Brilliant Pebbles into Boston Symphony Hall.....
Clark was an early benefactor, he carted around Brilliant Pebbles, the Intelligent Chip and lugged my big Sub Hertz Nimbus Platform to CES and all over.
I have sat in on numerous MBL room demos over the years and always found the sound to be harsh, bright and quite unpleasant overall. A lot of boom sizzle with very little beauty. Everytime. Preferences are inarguable. Not saying anyone is wrong for liking what they like. But I am shocked at how many people like MBL at shows.
in the early days when the 101 was introduced, they were seemingly always in some glass-walled and unusual room, perhaps due to the preference of the German reps or their low ranking on the totem pole of exhibitors. even though the sound was nearly unbearably bright and not quite refined in the bass, i heard something special.
at subsequent shows, they seemed to be a little better each year until one year, i was stunned at how good they were, and this was with the "plain Jane" 101s, not the Extremes which i never had heard. for several years, their high level of qualities, including their lows which had now progressed to exemplary and then i began to notice their lesser models had also made leaps in sound quality.
finally, either at THE Show Newport or CES, with Extremes, they had an extended Saturday evening/early Sunday morning listening session/party featuring RTR tape at 15ips and SPLs at near 110db levels that were just superb. i had garnered a seat in the sweet spot and fully enjoyed the evening until i just HAD to go to bed.
i would not hesitate to take a pair of 101s to be my wedded system had i the financial means to do them justice.
...regards...tr
It's ironic that your dislike of the MBL's you heard lines up with your observation that the MBL's measured frequency response can be kind of spikey (and, it appears, pretty rolled off in the high frequencies), given our discussion about accuracy vs. subjective preferences in audio a few years ago. And it's just as ironic that my partiality to the MBL's does not correspond at all to my stated desire in that discussion for accuracy above all else. I don't know if their more recent models have improved somewhat along these lines.
What I do like about the MBL's I've heard is that the speaker source itself just seems to vanish and all one is left with is the music in its own space. OTOH, I suspect that these speakers are very room dependent, and perhaps need some "wide open spaces" to sound their best. (I've always heard them in very large rooms, compared to the rooms which other exhibitors use.) Here's a 2012 Stereophile review by Michael Fremer (whom I don't trust at all), together with Atkinson's measurements - the link is to the measurement page:
It's a simple word but not a simple subject. My position on accuracy might seem a little slippery. I am all for accuracy until it is in conflict with my subjective preferences.
So if a particular inaccuracy lines up with a particular fault I hear I do take notice. As is the case with the MBLs.
But then when it comes to something like vinyl or tubes I like what I hear despite, or even because of the inaccuracies. I accept the inaccuracies and enjoy the sound.
Some audiophiles give priority to accuracy over pervieved sound quality. That's where I fall out of any accuracy camp.
I'm all for "objective accuracy" unless it conflicts with "subjective accuracy". I'm not sure that "subjective accuracy" and "subjective preference" are necessarily one and the same thing, though. It' mostly a mindset issue, perhaps ?In search of the subjective accuracy, I'd start out using objective measurements for a reference point. Then I'd give my system a listen, and if things didn't sound truly "accurate" to me I might tweak things a bit here and there and there and here until it did sound "right" (to me).
But I'm not exactly sure what I'd do in search of "subjective preference" though, as that term sounds a bit too vague for comfort. In the worst case scenario, it might possibly lead me into the sonic equivalent of a carnival "hall of mirrors"...
Edits: 11/08/21
We all observe reality through our own reality tunnels. We actually don't share the same reality when it comes to audio systems, among other things. Break free from your reality tunnels!
"The idea does not necessarily imply that there is no objective truth"
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Wishy-washy double negative.
"Accuracy" is supposedly an ideal that people should strive for in sound reproduction..... The problem is nobody knows for sure how "accuracy" is supposed to sound like......
There are known measurements in audio..... But we don't know whether they're adequate to determine whether a system is truly "accurate".....
A system may be "accurate" to one person, but may not be for another person..... There is no true objective standard here..... Because we don't really know what that standard actually is.... We can only speculate.
This is why I personally use the "live reference"..... Which is attempting to capture the sonic qualities consistent with music experienced in the flesh......
Now a system that captures the sonic qualities of the real thing may not necessarily be the most "accurate" (there might be compensation for imbalances in the recording going on- true accuracy means you're hearing the recording exactly as it was recorded).... But I do believe that capturing the essence of live music is the gold standard of the high-end audio experience.
Much less how you would gauge it.
It's interesting. You consider subjective preference to be overly vague.I would think that would be the case for "subjective accuracy."
Subjective preference is pretty straight forward as I see it. Two different things being compared. Which one sounds better to you? Boom, there is your preference.
Accuracy is objective by nature. As soon as you apply a subjective judgement to accuracy your assessment becomes less accurate ironically.
AND if I am ever in a position to choose between the perceptual experience of one thing being more "subjectively accurate" but the other sounding subjectively better, I will always go with better. Clear examples. I have heard many masterings of recordings that sounded better than flat hi res digital transfers of the original master tape. So I know which is more accurate. But in just about every case where I have had such transfers I have prefered one mastering or another that was clearly less accurate.
I think accuracy has it's place and value. Particularly these days when we have so much wonderful DSP to tailor the sound. Accuracy is often a great place to start. But for me rarely is the best place to end.
Also when we talk about accuracy we can't talk about it in a vacuum. The first question with accuracy is accuracy to what?
It's a short walk from the control room to the studio and back.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
it may be a short walk but there is a whole lot of gear in between. And if we are talking studio good chance a lot of the instruments are not acoustic. What you hear in the studio will not sound anything like what you hear inthe control room. By the way, how many recordings do you own that you got to sit in on the recording session?
I own exactly two and they were live acoustic concerts. Two out of about 3-4 thousand recordings I own. And with those two I can't begin to measure the "subjective accuracy" of any audio playback using either of those recordings. Way too much happened between the microphones and the final recording. And that was a good thing.
But I can still tell you what sounds better to me.
"What you hear in the studio will not sound anything like what you hear in the control room"
It will if I want it to.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
OK I want it to be!.......Did it magically happen? Can I use that now to audition audio gear?
Pretty sure I stiil don't know what was heard at all those other recording sessions I did not sit in on. Pretty sure the two I did sit in on still are of no use because of everything that went into the final production still went into the final production despite what I may want.
And very sure that even if this were not the case the issues of human long term aural memory would be a game stopper
Accuracy is objective in nature. Preferences are subjective in nature. Subjective accuracy is pretty much an oxymoron.
"OK I want it to be!.......Did it magically happen?"
No, it would not happen by magic. Mic placement, mic selection have a lot to do with it.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
But we consumers have nothing to do with that.
And even if we did. You would never get a true match. It's not possible.
And this really is a big and involved subject. IMO it's essentially one of the big myths of audiophilia. We have an entire long time publication of an audio review journal titled "The Absolute Sound" Whose original philosophy was that audio playback should be judged by the sound of live music. This is a nonsensical idea on many different levels. and yet there are audiophiles who are quite convinced that a piece of audio gear they are auditioning is actually *more accurate* because they think it makes recordings sound more like live music. Or more "accurately" (pun intended) the idea they have in their head about live music.
If you want I can make quite a list of reasons why this is absurd.
OTOH what we *like* is inarguable and what is accurate is objectively measurable. And they may or may not be the same in any given instance.
> But then when it comes to something like vinyl or tubes I like what I hear despite, or even because of the inaccuracies. I accept the inaccuracies and enjoy the sound.I've heard playback on phonograph/vinyl a number of times at the audio show and I Just Don't Get It.
Particularly on my genre (classical) it it either just OK, or substantially flawed and obviously congested with prickly pops compared to clear modern digital.
And with the maintenance necessities on maintaining fiddly electromechanical devices and particularly record cleaning and handling it's something I can entirely do without.
Same thing with horn speakers---obvious tonal flaws---with the major exception of Harman science products like the JBL M2. If I go into a room and see a horn-centered speaker or single driver I dip out right away.
Edits: 11/07/21
Most if not all vinyl in the last 20 years is produced from digital files. Unfortunately the way things are done the last 20 years is for the mastering engineer to overly compress the recordings, be they vinyl or CD. My go-to media is often "digital cassettes," that employ the digital file for manufacture, popular in the 80s and 90s, smooth and dynamic as all get out. And tonally superior. When you hear the same piece on CD something's missing, actually a lot is missing.
Edits: 11/09/21
"I've heard playback on phonograph/vinyl a number of times at the audio show and I Just Don't Get It."Particularly on my genre (classical) it it either just OK, or substantially flawed and obviously congested with prickly pops compared to clear modern digital."
If I had to speculate, the setup(s) were less than ideal.....
If all the alignments and adjustments are spot-on, vinyl will beat digital..... But if anything is off, whether it's vertical tracking angle, azimuth, anti-skate, rotational alignment (Baerwald/Loefgren/Stevenson), or even overhang, digital will beat vinyl.
Edits: 11/08/21
It's not for everyone. We are at a point where there is no reason to fear pops and ticks. There are numerous DSPs that can deal with that.
Record cleaning is a PIA. No two ways about it and I DON'T think of it as some sort of ritual that makes for a better experience.
The gear itself ought not to be fidely or high maintanance. Yeah, initial set up of anything new in the system is also a PIA. But it should be set it and forget it. If a vinyl playback system has any drift something aint right.
But yeah, I thoroughly enjoy listening to many classical vinyl records. In most cases the colorations inherent in vinyl and the colorations unique to my rig enhance the sound. They tend to be more spacious, with a greater sense of hall ambience, more harmonically complex, perceptually more dynamic, richer, livelier and more cohesive. Not by a large margin but still enough to be worth while. Yes, in the quietest parts I hear the noise of vinyl. Not to the point of distraction but to the point that I hear it if I am listening for it. But the truth is the noisiest medium there is would be live concerts. And it mostly works out sonically there.
And yes, there are bad records.Records that have damage to the point of being very distracting and even unlistenable. But there is bad digital too. Bad mastering plagues all formats and IMO this is one of the main reasons to have all formats. It just improves your odds of getting better sound with any given recording.
I am with you on horns. I haven't heard a horn loaded system that didn't have a distinct sonic signature of a horn. With that said I have not heard either the JBL M2s or the Magico flagship speakers.
As for tubes I am now done with them. I still love the sound of tubes but we now have some really sophisticated tube simulation with DSP. And DSP makes it optional. I will be able use it where it works and ditch it where it doesn't.
Everytime I heard the Big MBL room (101's) it was the OMFG experience of the show, and almost everyone agreed.
But after looking up some measurements I can quite literally see what I did not like about the sound. Of course this will be HIGHLY room dependent as these speakers fully engage any room they are in.
But no matter where you are in the room there's a lot of issues in the high frequencies.
But again, I will not argue preferences. OTOH I will argue that these speakers will sound quite different at any show depending on where you are sitting.
Could be I was sitting where those nasty high frequency peaks were present. But in audio show settings you tend to get a lot of reflectivity in the room.
Some of the smaller ones I've sometimes heard with some high frequency peaks.
But the big ones, in big rooms, were well on the warm/powerful/blooming axis and without any harshness at all. And these were the Voice Of God speakers
The first two times it was the 101s. The last time was the 101 x-treme
I recall the MBL being underwhelming at just one show I attended..... The 2011 THE Show...... (At other shows I attended, the large MBL room was generally in the top five at the whole show. And Best In Show a couple times.) Maybe that was the show he attended.......
I heard them at the show around 2005, I was in the I think it was Golden Sound exhibit right next door. Kind of boomy and solid state sounding, but perhaps looking at them and the monster amps, they look awesome, for some it might have been a case of expectation bias. Lol
Edits: 11/07/21
you are all by yourself on this one - everyone else loves them" These are the most realistic speakers I've heard, and though this has never before been the case, they are also the most musical and unconditionally enjoyable. Having eliminated almost all the things that make stereo systems sound like stereo systems, they are very nearly as unique in their non-stop sonic appeal as they are in their ingenious operating principle and brilliant engineering. Every time you listen to them is a pleasure and an amazement. And every time you stop listening to them, you want to come back. There is, quite literally, nothing else like them. Had I the money, I would buy them in a minute. " - The Absolute Sound reviewing the MBL 101-X extreme
Edits: 11/06/21 11/06/21
They are spot on the 3 times I've heard the 101 Extremes. Absolutely stunning, from pretty much anywhere. The system I would own over any others.
At my last RMAF many years ago I remember the MBL room being a standout for incredible sound quality.In terms of affordability I thought the Odyssey Audio room was outstanding.
For my "not impressed" room I recall hearing the new (2011 era) high-end Grand Integrated X-1 amp by Peachtree Audio. A nasty sounding dud that didn't last long - they discontinued it pretty quick. I don't think these guys get Class D right. I recently had the Class D Nova 150 integrated in my setup and it was a dud. Bought it used, sold it a month later. I still have my ancient Peachtree Audio iDecco Class AB amp. It sounds much better than their Nova 150. They appear to have a brand new GaNFET based Class D amp for $3000.
Edits: 11/06/21
The one brand that comes to mind is MBL...... And maybe in recent time, AGD Productions has stood out as well......
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