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An 'artifact' in case of single-component soundstage

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In Reply to: RE: "The problem with measurements". Some thoughts .... posted by 13th Duke of Wymbourne on February 22, 2024 at 10:22:48

That is, not the soundstage dependent of room setup and speaker positioning, but that varies with as single component, which is the sort morricab is talking about.

"Soundstage depth is an artifact created by less accurate reproduction".

Many people including me have heard the phenomenon produced by tube devices, referred to as "depth" or "image layering", (thanks to AbeCollins for the latter phrase).

I came to this conclusion over a decade ago by comparing a tube preamp with s/s preamps and passive volume control; none of the latter produced that effect.

I believe the tube-produced "depth" is an artifact created by tube distortion, possibly 2nd/3rd order distortion also responsible for tube "warmth".

Dmitri Shostakovich

Follow Ups:

RE: An 'artifact' in case of single-component soundstage - morricab 08:01:28 02/29/24 (2)
That is NOT what I am talking about.

I am talking about swapping in a DAC in a system and hearing the change in soudnstage from that swap.

And how do you explain then when the same tube amp or tube DAC give DIFFERENT soundstage depth and image dimensionality with each recording? Compared with an amp or DAC that has a flat soundstage and a flat image with each recording? Which one sounds more like an artifact to you?

Even with gear that doesn't result in a totally flat soundstage and a totally flat image, if that is truncated vs. gear that results in maximum contrast in this perception...how can you say the maximally differentiated is due to "artifacts" whereas the "pure" gear is more homogenized? Doesn't make logical sense honestly.
- So what "magic" accounts for the phenomenon? - Feanor 04:49:31 03/04/24 (1)
  Since the Topping D90SE has SOTA specs in terms of low distortion but has a "totally flat" soundstage, what is different about the more dimensional DAC?
  
  A plausible conclusion is that it has something to do with distortion ... or "magic".
  
  FWIW, my Topping D90, (original non-MQA with AKM DACs), doesn't seem to be lacking in dimensionality -- if it's on the recording.
  
  Dmitri Shostakovich
  - RE: So what "magic" accounts for the phenomenon? - morricab 06:05:38 03/04/24 (0)
    The other Toppings I heard had flat soundstage compared to better sounding DACs, therefore, when a couple of reviewers say the soundstage is relatively flat I am inclined to believe them because of my experience with other models in their lineup and the similarity of design concept.
    
    As I mentioned in other posts the flatness of a soundstage seems to be a function of high frequency content. If there is distortion or accentuation (some reviewers thought he D90se could be considered a bit "bright"). Loudness cues affect the perception of depth. Louder things are closer and high frequency content also drops with distance. If that is accentuated then that can truncate the soundstage and make images sound flat.
    
    I once had a preamp for test that was a tube/mosfet hybrid. I owned an amp from this company that was also a hybrid, which had very good soundstage depth/width and solid 3d imaging (it was a very good hybrid in fact...one of the best of that type I know). The preamp, however, was FLAT, FLAT and FLAT sounding. Remove the preamp and replace it with basically anything else I had (they were all tube preamps) on hand and the depth and 3d imaging returned. The weird thing was that it sounded pretty good otherwise, but the soundstage flatness was disconcerting as it was so obvious. Finally, I concluded that there was something in the treble that was accentuating loudness (and therefore distance) cues that resulted in the unfortunate outcome. Did it have a lot more or less distortion than the other products? Probably not...but it seemed to have something in the range that regulates this perception.

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