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In Reply to: RE: But how do you prove something that is very subjective? posted by Geoffkait on April 28, 2025 at 13:52:53
Testing is how. What you need are two conditions to test for.
Like Does X make a difference or improvement you can hear?
Get a group of enthusiasts and as rapidly as possible switch back and forth between "with and without" and without any indication which was which. Everyone keeps track of A or B sounds best with a variety of music. With enough samples / listeners, one would get a pretty good idea if there was a difference between the two.
Landing on heads 6 out of 10 times means nothing but heads 600 out of 1000 that is something.
Doing this without knowledge of which was which forces one to depend on ears alone instead of what you know and see as well.
Follow Ups:
"Does x make an improvement you can hear?"
That is a logical fallacy, here's why: because sometimes people can't hear any difference for many reasons not associated with the device under test. You know, things like the system has errors in it, the listener's hearing is not really as good as he believes it is, the test system isn't revealing enough, the tester didn't follow instructions. Whatever.
"Does x make an improvement you can hear?"
That is a logical fallacy, here's why: because sometimes people can't hear any difference for many reasons not associated with the device under test. You know, things like the system has errors in it, the listener's hearing is not really as good as he believes it is, the test system isn't revealing enough, the tester didn't follow instructions. Whatever.
Unless the "thing"causes an effect unique to you, others may be able to hear, taste, smell what ever it is.
If others also detect it, then it is possible to test this perception by seeing if other people actually detect it or just think they detect it.
Remember your "hearing" includes what you see and know as that Mcgurke video demonstrates, it's why a hearing test has no other clues, it's testing your hearing alone.
At the edge of perception the statistical odds can show a trend, for example if 600 out of 1000 listeners said X cables made a difference with out knowing when they were using lamp-cord and and exotica that means something.
But if you can't hear a system improvement without having it pointed out or seeing it.....
That's kind of the whole point, that's it's universal. A couple vacates though, your system should be working properly. It doesn't have to be exceptional, it can be average. It just can be out of polarity, that sort of thing. And your hearing has to be be average or better.
I don't follow trends, trends are for other people. But Good luck, as Bob Dylan says at the end of his records.
"but heads 600 out of 1000 that is something"
But that only indicates that there is a difference, not that it's "better".
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Well, you have to be able hear whether it's unchanged, or better, or worse, or a mixture. Some positive things have their downside. But I understand, everything is black and white with you guys.
Edits: 04/29/25
If the question had been, which of these was better a or b, then 600 does tell you something about preference.
Nt
View YouTube Video
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
You always post that video and it's irrelevant. Grasping at straws as usual.
Not irrelevant but perhaps troubling as it demonstrates that your perception includes what you see and in some cases, what you see over rides what what you hear.
That perception includes what you know as well and is why they remove all of those inputs when they test your hearing, there is no red light to show when the tone is present. In that case, they only want to know what you actually hear (perception limited to ones ears) and this approach also works for audio.
See, as it turns out my latest devices are very good candidates for several concepts including Extended Mind Thesis, action-at-a-distance, quantum teleportation, programmable matter, and mind matter interaction. So, I'm on board any interpretation of reality that includes one or more of those.
"People say believe half of what you see son, and none of what you hear"
Marvin Gaye
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 04/29/25
Nt
"it only shows how easily fooled you are."
As long as customers / decision makers are also "fooled" when they listen , my job is done.
I suppose if you design things, in sort of a parallel universe way, that's your job too
Nt
Fwiw, my hobby has been home audio for most of my life and while i have always wanted to sell home living room market but we don't, i only design the stuff.
Hard for you to imagine but the others seem to think home audio has too much "snake oil" and folklore to put much effort into it so the focus is where it's easier and side by side listening is common.
DIY has always been a hobby and that is why i still post here and give advice occasionally.
While there are certainly critical listeners as customers, the smaller speaker were through the recording studio area. I wouldn't say any of them are more gullible or naive about their craft than any working professional and ALL are very familiar with what their instruments sound like first hand.
That is an advantage for us because they can hear the difference before you explain how it works, if they even ask how.
Seems like pretty standard comments on audio, but thanks anyway.
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