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RE: AN DAC 3.1/4.1 versus the competition

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M3Pilot

In Reply to: RE: AN DAC 3.1/4.1 versus the competition posted by blueixus on March 04, 2011 at 08:07:15

Those are terrific and very, VERY useful comments. THANK YOU!

Follow Ups:

RE: AN DAC 3.1/4.1 versus the competition - RGA 17:57:23 03/05/11 (8)
I recently reviewed a one box player from Audio Note for dagogo.com
The thing with these guys' digital is that it sounds natural even in the entry level models and that can't be said for numerous other guys' top of the line models.
I have not tried an AN with computer based systems at home though my dealer soundhounds.com located in Victoria British Columbia uses a Soolos into an Audio Note Dac 2 or perhaps 4.1 sig (can't remember) and it sounded pretty damn good though it was all connected to a B&W D800 which at $22,000 I would not trade my AN J for let alone an AN E at 1/5 the price. The owner of Soundhounds incidentally also carries Meridian and Ayre's QB9 (which I actually liked as well). Still if AN digital (for CD) has competition to me it comes from Zanden and EMM Labs - but neither of them sell $2kish players - they're in the $20k price range and I'm not convinced they're necessarily better than a DAC 2.1 - at least not if music is the priority.
That said - My understanding was that Audio Note digital is really made for CD replay - so I would be interested in how you get it to handle computer digital inputs and how it converts. My understanding was that the USB was kind of a throw in and made by some other company. So does the AN DAC actually do the conversion the way it does it for a CD?

Edits: 03/05/11
- RE: AN DAC 3.1/4.1 versus the competition - atrostar60 04:00:04 01/10/13 (0)
  Hi RGA
  
  I agree, the Audio Note DACs both Kits and UK products are great quality.
  
  Partnering them with a PC based system is not a problem. As with most outboard DACs sub 3k it is best to use a USB-SPDIF convertor, as the SPDIF input on nearly all DACs has been proved to be the best protocol. I am using an M2Tech EVO full stack with my 3.1 SE Kit.
  
  There are one box DACs out there with a USB board built in. But most of those get poor reviews as regards the SQ. I think a manufacturer has a balancing act with cost v input types. In the old style DAXCs we had one input (SPDIF) and the budget was spent getting that spot on to feed the chips in the DAC. However, with Firewire, USB and TOS-LINK it creates a problem with money spent on each input board.
  
  A more logical way forward for a sub 3k DAC would be to have a card slot, a bit like a PC, and order the USB or TOS-LINK board that you require when buying the DAC. It would thus keep the price down v high SQ offered.
  
  Also, the USB convertor market has exploded in 2012 with better and better quality v price units. The DAC is sort of fixed, and won't date IMHO so a good investment to buy and keep.
  
  The other market is of course DACs that are also music servers, though I personally feel these would date very quickly and for PC literate users would prove too limiting re software and hardware.
  
  Finally I would NEVER buy a music server with a CDP built. The CD mechanism on most of them is from a computer origin (CD/DVD) and they die pretty quickly. Better to have an external CDP if one is still required.
- RE: AN DAC 3.1/4.1 versus the competition - M3Pilot 05:01:59 03/06/11 (6)
  Thank you for the response!
  
  I agree that the USB interface in the AN DACs appears very rudimentary so my plan was to not bother with it at all. If I do stick with a PC (or switch to Mac) as my transport I will most likely go with a USB-SPDIF converter between the computer and DAC (HiFace, Offramp, etc.). I could use a high-end sound card from that outputs via SPDIF but I really don't want the added complexity and size. My current PC transport is a purpose-built Windows PC that's nothing more than a 7"x7"2" black box - it doesn't look/sound/taste like a computer and I plan to keep it that way. But it can't accomodate an internal sound card.
  
  That said once I get my audio a little more sorted out I'm going to experiment further with the Sonos including comparing my modified and stock units. The interface can't really be beaten and there's no software to tweak or worry about. True it only plays up to 16/44.1 and that bothered me for awhile but I have to admit that I don't have any hi-rez material and very little of the music I listen to is even available in hi-rez.
  
  I never really liked B&W speakers much. Not that I had specific complaints - it's just that I never was wowed by them the few times I've heard them. I heard the 802 Diamond (latest version apparently different from the 802D) recently when auditioning the PS Audio DAC and was very impressed. It didn't hurt that I heard them right after a $40k pair of TAD monitors and thought the 802s sounded very nearly as good. I must admit that the AN speaker kits look pretty interesting but it's a bigger gamble having never heard them.
  
  Who knows - I haven't bought anything yet.
  
  Thanks again for your insight.
  - RE: AN DAC 3.1/4.1 versus the competition - RGA 08:53:31 03/07/11 (5)
    Well with the AN Kits - I suppose their biggest advantage is that you can listen to the production models out there first before you buy one. Kits scare people I think because you buy unheard.
    
    I would suggest you put a little money of your budget and attend an audio show. Granted the sound of the rooms is not perfect by any stretch but everyone is in the same boat with room quality and generally size and shape so no one has any advantage/disadvantage (mostly) and you can pretty much listen to every major player and some smaller guys. And you hear them with the gear they select and feel is the best match. AN Kits sometimes goes to such shows as well which is great to listen before you put out cash.
    
    You can usually get into any show for very cheap. California Audio Show is in San Fran in July which Dagogo will run again this year - But there seems to be one every other month somewhere in the U.S.
    
    My plan is also to get an AN digital something. I loved the one box player but I think I would like the DAC instead and end up with something more upgradable.
    
    With the speakers - I only heard one KIT E and for me anyway I think the production version sounds better perhaps because of the tighter tolerances or their in house matching process that can't be done as a kit build, and to me that may be why the kit sounded comparatively dead - still better than a lot of other speakers but it also didn't sound like an AN E. But then maybe it was the builder?
    
    I can't see that applying to any of the amps, DACs etc though since it's more about the parts quality and you can pay less and get better parts going with the kits bypassing the expensive British Labor and overhead.
    - RE: AN DAC 3.1/4.1 versus the competition - AstroSonic 08:10:35 03/08/11 (4)
      "With the speakers - I only heard one KIT E and for me anyway I think the production version sounds better perhaps because of the tighter tolerances or their in house matching process that can't be done as a kit build, and to me that may be why the kit sounded comparatively dead - still better than a lot of other speakers but it also didn't sound like an AN E. But then maybe it was the builder?"
      
      I would have a pretty high confidence level with the speakers. Auditioning impressions will be strongly influenced by system components (including wires and power conditioning), the room (and positioning in the room), quality of power (how much noise is on the line), and especially cabinet construction (materials, joints, etc.). I think that if you like the AN/E sound you will be pleased with the kits.
      
      Regards,
      
      Bob
      - RE: AN DAC 3.1/4.1 versus the competition - RGA 16:24:49 03/08/11 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: AN DAC 3.1/4.1 versus the competition posted by AstroSonic on March 08, 2011 at 08:10:35
        
        I heard the Kit E at Soundhounds with the Audio Note Soro and one of their cd players and matching cables and AN E stands. So the room was exactly the same and both the Kit E was compared directly against a very old AN E/LX (a chipboard version) back in the early 90s. So it was an apples to apples comparison. There is a massive price difference between the kit E and any new production E but personally speaking I would buy a ten year old AN E (or sacrifice some bass for an AN J which I own) production model over a kit E based on that audition. It's the only kit I've heard so perhaps the builder did something wrong or overdamped it - but it sounded less open and alive compared to the production models that I've heard. And that's the problem when auditioning someone's kit - if they do something wrong or not bang on perfect then the result may not be what "is possible" from the design. But it certainly leads me to conclude that there is a "lot" to the matching process of the production models.
        
        RE: AN DAC 3.1/4.1 versus the competition - AstroSonic 06:43:53 03/09/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: AN DAC 3.1/4.1 versus the competition posted by RGA on March 08, 2011 at 16:24:49
        
        RGA,
        
        Just to clarify, did you do the comparison in the early 90's, or was the production ANE/LX was an early 90's model?
        
        Given all the variations available (internal wiring, voice coil wiring, driver efficiencies, crossover caps, etc.), I would think it rather difficult to compare a production apple with a kit apple, with the assumption that they are the 'same'.
        
        I do think that driver and crossover matching is critical, no doubt. The extra level of matching for the production speakers gives them a performance edge. An interesting comparison would be between production and kit models of the same general cost...
        
        Regards,
        
        Bob
        
        RE: AN DAC 3.1/4.1 versus the competition - RGA 12:05:59 03/09/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: AN DAC 3.1/4.1 versus the competition posted by AstroSonic on March 09, 2011 at 06:43:53
        
        Well Soundhounds carries Audio Note. So I've heard much of the AN E line up including the new ones and models like the SEC silver sig. The comparhe ison done was around 2003-2004. I believe there were only a couple of kit levels at the time but the kit in theory should have been better since the speaker was using Russian birch and fresher drivers than a very old production LX (they still have the LX).
        
        What you would have to do is compare the top of the line Kit with the cabinet price in and compare that to a production model. So maybe a top kit might price out at an entry level AN E/HE LX or something. Does the matching process trump the use of alnico drivers and silver wiring for instance?
      - RE: AN DAC 3.1/4.1 versus the competition - AudioNoteKits 08:23:26 03/08/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: AN DAC 3.1/4.1 versus the competition posted by AstroSonic on March 08, 2011 at 08:10:35
        
        Hi Bob,
        Yes there are quite a few variables when auditioning speakers - the stands actually make a huge difference along with the cabinetry for a start - also we have the 94db ( 02) and 98db ( 03) version of the kit speakers -I find the kit1 for example really likes the 98DB where as 12W and above is fine with the 94db kit - the cabinets are also quite a difficult build for a first time project even for an experienced carpenter - we have built about 50 sets now ( we have made a lot of jigs!) and have a lot of expertise which is why the kit cabinets from audionotekits are so high quality - the other thing is the type of amp driving the speakers whether its single ended or push pull - which style - interstage etc etc.. so there can be a lot of variable and then of course room dynamics at shows or in home environment- let us know where you heard the speakers and any other details about room, amplifiers , music etc... thanks Brian
RE: AN DAC 3.1/4.1 versus the competition - blueixus 01:08:35 03/05/11 (3)
Hi there, I did forget to mention in my post - don't bother with the Audio Note spec'ed Hagman USB interface, it is by today's standards miles way off the pace - go with an external USB Interface as you suggest.

Regards
- RE: AN DAC 3.1/4.1 versus the competition - flatovercrest 02:09:09 03/05/11 (2)
  I have just finished building the Dac 4-1 kit and even though it has not had many hours running, I can confirm that in comparison with a Wadia 16 and a Naim CDX 2 CD player the Audio note has seen off all competition.
  This is the first digital player I have heard that has high resolution, good transient, sweet lifelike mid range and treble and deep bass.
  Classical, Rock, Jazz, all sound dynamic and life like. You will not be disappointed with this kit.
  
  Happy listening.
  
  Alex.
  - RE: AN DAC 3.1/4.1 versus the competition - Electricsun 20:13:26 03/05/11 (1)
    I haven't heard the audio note and am curious about it as well. I too own crimson gear and love it. Who did you buy yours from? Have you considered the resolution audio cantata? It is excellent sounding as well.
    - RE: AN DAC 3.1/4.1 versus the competition - M3Pilot 05:26:21 03/06/11 (0)
      Wow! So you're the other guy who has Crimson! :-) I'm kidding of course but it seems like nobody I talk to about hi-end audio has heard of it. The only reason I found out about it was when I tried to buy a used Naim amp from a guy on Audiogon the seller actually suggested I try to give Crimson a listen (before buying HIS amp - because that's what he replaced his Naim kit with).
      
      I got my stuff from Creston Funk of Austin Hifi (then Concert Sound) in Austin Texas. First I bought the 640E monoblocs and picked up a used Resolution Audio Opus CD player and ran it direct. It sounded good but somehow not as involving as the demo gear Funk sent me (Crimson 600-series pre, stereo amp and DNM speaker wire/interconnects) when fed by the Marantz SA11 cd player I had at the time. I figured that the difference must be the lack of a stand-alone preamp so at least a year later I decided to spring for 710. To help fund that purchase I sold the Opus and got a mid-level Marantz player. This combination was better (for me) than the preamp-less configuration. Then I decided to experiment with comptuer based audio which led me to the Benchmark DAC I currently own. This proved to be a further improvement in both sonics and convenience.
      
      The Cantata certainly looks interesting but given it's price I'm concerned that maybe the RA sound just isn't for me. I know I haven't really made an apples to apples comparison having only heard the full Crimson kit with the Opus when I visited Austin but it seems like it could be an expensive experiment.
      
      I do dig the Crimson gear though!

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