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Apologies in advance for the length of this request.I have a Cary Sli-80 F1 integrated that I've enjoyed for several years. Recently there was a sudden intermittent popping noise in the left channel and the EL34 tube in position 2 was flashing in time to the popping. Foolishly, I assumed it was a tube failure and put in another set of output tubes. On power-up the KT-77 tube in #2 began to heat up and glow dramatically so I shut off the power immediately.
Trying to avoid the cost and damage risk of shipping the amp back to Cary I took it to a local shop which is an authorized Mcintosh repair facility. The diagnosis is, "A shorted capacitor is causing the amplifier to blow the 2nd output tube." I'm assuming their diagnosis is accurate but they seem not to be familiar with Cary amps and I'm not thrilled with the two repair options they offer. One is to replace all the coupling capacitors with generic polypropylene caps or order the Jensen oil in copper caps from Cary at a cost of $600 for the caps, plus labor. They're also insisting that I supply a complete set of new tubes if they're going to warranty the repair.
So the questions are, can I source the four caps myself and what would be your recommendation for caps? I had a recommendation a couple of years ago from my dealer in Seattle to replace the Jensens with Cardas but they're no longer in production. I've found opinions online that either Mundorf or V-Caps would be a good option.
And, is it reasonable to consider replacing the caps myself? I've done a fair amount of DIY soldering and think I could probably figure that part out, but what do I need to do to ensure I don't zap myself if I decide to go ahead with doing the work myself?
-thanks in advance for your advice and help. Apologies for cross posting to audiogon hoping I can find someone who has advice about this obscure issue.
Edits: 02/20/14Follow Ups:
I promised an update to all of you who offered such good advice and experience.
After looking at all the advice and options I sent the amp to John Zimmerman at Audio Connection, the Cary dealer in Seattle, based on my previous experience with him and a couple of reassuring and informative phone conversations. I had been reluctant to take the risk of shipping but the local shop’s analysis of the problem and especially their estimates of the cost of the repair, seemed completely crazy.
The bottom line is that John replaced all the capacitors in the amp, including installing four Cardas Golden Ratio caps, for a price, including two-way shipping, that was one fourth the price of the local shop’s estimate to replace the Jensen caps, and their insistence I had to buy a complete new set of new stock tubes if I wanted any kind of warranty.
The irony is that a couple of years ago when I took a friend into John’s shop to listen to some speakers and we were talking about my system, John recommended that I replace the Jensen copper-in-oil capacitors because they have such a high failure rate. I didn’t do it then and should have. It would have saved me considerable money and aggravation.
I got the amp back last night, fired it up this morning and it sounds fantastic. It has been an expensive but interesting lesson. Find the good dealers out there and trust them to do right by you.
Many thanks to all of you for taking the time to give me the benefit of your technical expertise and sometimes hard-won experience. I learned a lot that has helped me get to a tentative decision about how to deal with the amp problem.
I had a great conversation yesterday with John at Audio Connection, the Cary dealer in Seattle. I’d had good dealings with them when I lived there and knew he is very knowledgeable about Cary amps since they not only sell them but repair them, as well.
Unless there is some problem beyond a shorted capacitor they can replace all the caps in the amp, not just the coupling capacitors, for about the same price as the local place was going to charge for just the four generic caps. They have a stock of the discontinued Cardas caps and recommend them very highly based on other replacements they’ve done. Shipping charges will be a factor, of course, but the costs would seem to be very reasonable compared to the alternatives and I do have some confidence in their work based on past experience.
I’ll update with results within a few weeks, I hope.
Thanks again
Let us know the results. :-)
Yes, thanks, I will, but it may take awhile. It took four weeks just to get an estimate from the local shop.
Keep the info on the oil caps. Just in case the Cardas caps don't float your boat. I've never used the Cardas but George makes good stuff.
Edits: 02/22/14
Yes, thanks, I will. I plan to open up the amp and get the values of all the caps since it's clear replacing them is a periodic maintenance chore.
Ironically, when I had some other work done at Audio Connections a couple of years ago and John found out I had a Cary Sli-80 he told me I should bring it in to replace the Jensen caps because they have such a high failure rate. I wish I'd done it when he suggested it but soon got involved in a job change and a move. It would have saved me quite a bit of money if I'd taken his advice at that time.
BTW, inmate Michael Samra does an upgrade to the power supply of Cary amps that really improves it using motor run capacitors. You could e-mail him for the details and have the local shop do the work. The parts are cheap.
The shop has already invested time (cost) in the diagnosis and sourcing of new caps. Reward them and remove all risk of personal injury by letting them do the repair with parts you source yourself at lower cost. Shop makes money, you avoid risk, get a functioning amp at much lower cost.
I would seek equivalent caps. There are lower price caps with sound equal to or better than Jensen, and they will be more reliable than the notoriously crappy Jensen oilers. I would not drop some mass market poly caps such as Panasonic (ugh) in their place, no matter how cheaply you can get them. Cary used the Jensen caps for the sound. I would avoid Mundorf because, although they're nice caps, they have a sound very different from Jensen. Consider the better grade of Clarity Cap, which has a dense, rounded, spacious sound similar to the Jensen's. Or spend a lot more and get a true film/foil cap or another PIO. Can't speak for the Russian surplus oilers, but they do have a good rep and are cheap. Do some research on your own instead of just asking for variably accurate opinions here.
Peace,
Tom E
There are no problems with the new Jensen caps. There was a bad run some years ago and Tobias Jensen admitted it.
The new Jensen caps are not problematic. Be sure you get the newer ones. If you liked the sound of your amp replace the caps with Jensens, Vitamin Q or the Russian oilers. You may also want to consider the cryo'ed Jupiter HT bees wax caps. The price for the caps from Cary is nuts. You can try several different caps for a lot less than that.
SETdude, I Googled the part number of those capacitors in the ebay listing, CQ09A1MF224K3. Are we sure those are PIO?
Peter,
Vitamins Q's come in various cases etc. search the tubes DIY forum for more info.
Okay, thanks!
Gudeman, West Cap and others are Vitamin Q. All are in metal cases and hermetically sealed.
Yes, they are Vitamin Q's.
Thanks, SETdude, good information.
One of the reasons I'm inclined to retrieve the amp from the local shop is that they're proposing charging me $600 for the caps and I found them listed on the Cary site for $90 each, $360 for the set. I know the shop has to make a profit but a 50% markup over Cary's already high price seems out of line.
You can get those Jensens at PCX in Canada for $37.17 apiece, PCX stock # JENSEN-64488.They also have them rated at 1000VDC for $44.20 apiece, PCX stock # JENSEN-58623.
OR, the Russian K40Y-9 PIO are available for around $10 or $15 for all four capacitors! K40Y-9 get rave reviews from many people, and I have tried them myself in my Dynaco PAS. I also own a Cary SLI-80 with F1 upgrades, and based upon my experiences with it, I am inclined to think the K40Y-9 would be a good choice for when the time comes for me to change-out its coupling caps. They are a real smooth-sounding capacitor after they break in
One big caveat about the K40Y-9: they have metal bodies. If you install them in your SLI-80, either insulate their bodies or otherwise make certain they do not come into contact with other parts of the circuitry!! Zzzzap!
Edits: 02/21/14 02/21/14 02/21/14 02/21/14 02/21/14 02/21/14 02/21/14
What Peter said. +1 Try the K40's first .22uf 630 volt. They are very good and cheap but they are getting harder to source. If they don't suit you...but I bet they will be fine..try another PIO.
If you liked you amp with the Jensens, stay with PIO. If you want to try film caps get something cheap to try. I bet you will take them out. *I* am a PIO kinda guy and you may be too.
See link. You can get the caps for less than $25.
Yes, you can buy me a beer. :-)
Thanks, airtime, wheezer, petercapo and Caucasian Blackplate, for the excellent guidance. I'll retrieve the amp, get the precise specifications on the caps and figure out what to do next.
Can you look in and see what type, rating and brand caps are already in there? Just replace them with what's in there.
ORRRR - go over to the tube forum. Post for any recommendations for filter caps for that amp and position. GREAT bunch of guys and they really do know there stuff!
charles
The Dx does sound reasonable...1 cap and one OPTube.
As CB indicated, the Jensen Oil would be the last choice.
There's a lot of info regarding their failure rates in the archives.
Take your pick of replacements and change all four caps.
Same uf, perhaps increase the Voltage rating.
For $600, you could "probably" DIY Vcaps.
Doing it yourself is certainly a lot less expensive than the options offered by your local repair shop!Any capacitors of the same value and voltage rating (or higher voltage rating) as the originals will work fine. Consider any space limitations in fitting new capacitors, though. The originals should have the values and voltage ratings clearly marked. It's really just a question of the kind of sound different capacitors could provide and what sound qualities you prefer.
Jensens are available from PCX in Canada and probably other places for less than you'd pay locally or direct from Cary. There are also good polypropylene capacitors available from several sources, but the sound quality will change. If you liked the Jensen PIO, then order those again. OR, if you liked the Jensen PIO, try some K40Y-9 PIO capacitors that should sound excellent, IMO likely more reliable than Jensen and will save you money.
The safety aspect is extremely important. I cannot offer a comprehensive set of safety suggestions, but you'd certainly want to leave the unit unplugged for a while, which would hopefully discharge the capacitors in the power supply. Don't just go by what I have suggested here - you absolutely must still spend time searching on the Internet and other sources for a more complete set of safety practices.
Bear in mind that you could change the coupling caps and there might yet be other problems involved.
Peter
Edits: 02/20/14 02/20/14 02/20/14 02/20/14 02/20/14 02/20/14
If you're still in Seattle, I can help you fix your amp.
The diagnosis is very plausible. What are the current caps in there?
Jensen caps would be my last choice from a warranty perspective.
From what I have seen of Cary amp guts, Panasonic polypropylene caps should work well for you.
Thanks very much for the kind offer of help. Unfortunately I'm now in Austin and can't take advantage of your offer.
I think the current caps are Jensen copper-in-oil .22uf, 1000V, but I'll open up the amp when I get it back and check the specifications.
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