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Tweakers' Asylum Tweaks for systems, rooms and Do It Yourself (DIY) help. FAQ. |
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Tweakers' Asylum Tweaks for systems, rooms and Do It Yourself (DIY) help. FAQ. |
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In Reply to: Re: an e-mail to Thorsten about Tweeters and woofers. posted by Hungsen on May 31, 2000 at 01:39:32:
Hi there,>You meant that 9900 is more "pleasant to ears"?
Not neccesary pleasant, perhaps I'd chose the word "easy". It takes the Edge of EVERYTHING, even if there is supposed to be one. Dynaudio the same.
>I do feel that 9900 are much more "friendly" but somehow, lack
>in sharpness or accuracy.Exactly. It is a "softdome" and sounds like it.
>The crispy sound from metal dome tweeters is a bit "frightening."
Well, I do not neccesarily like ALL metal Domes. Indeed, I do not like Most Dome tweeters. They have so many fundamentally wrong points in their construction that I don't even want to start.... The Focal Tweeters are much more akin to Cone tweeters, they do not drive the Diaphragm from the Apex for example and they have the "inverted" dome which overall behaves much better.
>I got this impression from LPG tweeters.
I have not used the LPG Tweeters. I find that most convetional Speakers sound very unnatural, not at all like Music. I like best large Studio Monitors like The UREI Coax Units, Tannoy Coaxials, the really large PMC/ATC Monitors, Musik Electronik Gaithain, even the old JBL Units with their "acoustic lense" Midranges ain't that bad.
I also like some of the better "HiFi" Speakers from the older Days, the really Large Lowther Cabinets (TP1 and Opus) and the current Beauhorns, also the large Carfrae Horn. I like the older versions of Wilson Audio Watt/Puppy and the X-1. The Avant Garde Horns in the most recent Generations are really good.
Most "HiFi" Speakers I have come across sound soft, indistinct, compressed and distorted, regardless of price. They do have fewer Frequency Response Problems, but these matter relatively little to me, ever thought what the "room" (either your own or the Concert hall) does to the frequency response of a Violin?
For the record, I'm rather familiar with Spendor, KEF, Tannoys "HiFi" Speakers (not the Heritage Series), EPOS Speakers, Ruark (the top of the line series), Hales, Thiel, Wilson Audio and so on. I like best from the more common Speakers Epos. The ES-30 is nice, still compressed though. The ES-12 with a Subwoofer is quite good too.
The best "commercial" HiFi System I have heard in a long time anywhere was based on the small Tannoy Coaxial Speakers (with a 10", very victorian looking cabinet) driven by Quad II Reissue Valve Monoblocks driven from a Wadia CD Player. This was at a Dealership where I know the Boss quite well and go for auditioning a lot of Stuff and can often borrow things.
I walked into the shop and before I saw what was palying I felt nothing ever there had sounded better. They had just replaced a apair of the Huge Ruark Speakers (Equinox or something - huge, dual 8" Woofers, dual 3" midrange domes and Scan Revelator Tweeter) driven triamped and Triwired with a huge nbatch of Chord Amplifiers and driven via Chord Preamp and from a Meridian CDP. I had allwasyfelt that that system sounded like hammers proverbial.
Maybe this illustrates where I'm comming from.
>What about 9800?? It uses aluminum.
I don't know it.
>You make me feel like Lowther Drivers or good full range drivers
>are much better than most drivers out there.Yes. They are. Many of them have a much higher Sensitivity and are designed for Low Distortion and Compression. For Example, I have just come across a Website detailing a "Mini-Monitor" using a Seas Coax Chassis. Now many even quite expensive "HiFi" Speakers use Drivers much worse than the Seas Coax Speakers.
Yet the Speaker is shown to exceed 1% Distortion at 90db/1m (that is about 84db at 2m listening Distance) and starts to compress at about 80db/1m (that is about 74db at 2m listening Distance), long before even 1 Watt is reached. Yes, Scan Speak Drivers are a little better on distortion but not much.
http://www.stryke.com/philsaudio/image31.gif
Basically, if this where an Amplifier it would make even the worst measuring SE Valve Amp I have ever come across (and I have come across some serious Lemons in recent years) look like it's a marvel of low distortion and compression Engineering.
Or to be blunt, where it matters this speaker measures PISS POOR! And it is actually better than a lot that is sold out there.
Now in my books you need 102db/1m with less than 0.3% Distortion and less than 1db Compression to get "realistic" reproduction of a Symphonoic Orchestra or a acoustic Jazz Ensemble.... Most "HiFi" Speakers fail this criteria miserably, yet a Beauhorn Virtuoso Hornspeaker loaded with a Lowther DX3 Driver manages this easily under INCLUSION of the Distortion of a 300B SE Amplifier....
So, who is kidding who in the "HiFi" game?
>I don't know too much about Full range drivers. Why don't
>most people use them?Good fullrange Drivers are hard to make and hence expensive. As long as it is common to find $ 5 in batches of 100 Tweeters and Midrange Drivers and $ 10 - 15 in batches of 100 Woofers in $ 5,000 "High-End" Speakers no-one is gonna fit a pair of $ 500 OEM Price Fullrange Drivers, are they now?
>I can't find any full range drivers used in high-end speakers
>from Stereophile's recommendation list?Of course not. SP only reviews stuff with many Dealerships, US Importation and so on. For a long time they did not list even the Quad ESL Speakers as there was no US Distribution and not enough Dealers.
Such a policy blatantly favours established Manufacturers and blatantly denies the public access to the less common gear made by small Outfits who dar to be different.
The number of Speakers in SP's Recommended Components that will pass the abovementioned Criteria of 102db/1m @ < 0.3% THD and < 1db Compression is minimal, probably the Avant Garde Horns are the only ones on the Entire list, perhaps the Larger Wilsons too. Most of the rest will fail miserably.
> personal taste?
Money and the way the Industry works?
>What is the weakness of full range drivers?
Frequency Response at the Extremes, smoothness of Frequency response.
>Any example? What is the sonic problem?
A Firend has a pair of Wilson Audio Watt/Puppy MK III. Thes ehad the glassfibre Domes from Focal. They allways sounded rather "stingy" in the treble. Replacing the Diaphragms with a pair of ones for repairing the newer Tdx Series Tweeters basically took the sting out very neatly.
>>Goodmans Axiom 80. Reps. Phy-Hp.
>Where can I find more info and details about these drivers?Try the "Single Driver Website" referenced below.
Later T
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Follow Ups
- Re: an e-mail to Thorsten about Tweeters and woofers. - Thorsten 04:06:01 05/31/00 (2)
- Re: an e-mail to Thorsten about Tweeters and woofers. - Hungsen 04:21:49 06/01/00 (1)
- Re: an e-mail to Thorsten about Tweeters and woofers. - Thorsten 04:58:07 06/01/00 (0)
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