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In Reply to: Re: Are there any fans of the great pop of the sixties? posted by J on August 18, 2004 at 21:01:44:
Your ignorance amazes me. Obviously what you know about multi-track recording we could put in a flea's ass and have room for a boxcar. Brian recorded many versions of Good Vibrations. He pieced portions of those versions together for the final product. Where your wrong is assuming that these versions were all two track single take masters. Again, ANY 4 track song recorded using multiple instruments/ volcals/over-dubs had to have been done with the final sound in the recording engineers head long before the individual tracks were completed, as every bounce increases the noise floor. You seem to like to criticise my posts. I've been ignoring yours, even though many of the things you say are blatently wrong. For example, you once told me in a post here that Mike Love got royalties for many BB songs because he co-wrote them. That is false information. But, I never corrected you. Your not worth my time, to be honest.
Follow Ups:
Oh, what's the matter. It bothers you that much that Bo Diddley is rapping now?> you once told me in a post here that Mike Love got royalties for many BB songs because he co-wrote them. That is false information.
Next time, do a little research before you presume to tell others they are wrong when you don't know what you are talking about. From
http://elr.lls.edu/issues/v23-issue1/tomlinson.pdf
"In 1995, Beach Boys co-founder and lead singer Mike Love reached an out-of-court settlement concerning thirty-five Beach Boys songs he was judicially declared to have co-written, but for which he was never credited. Mike Love Settles Lawsuit Against Brian Wilson for $5 Million and Future Royalties on 35 Beach Boys Songs, ENT. L. REP., Jan. 1995, at 8, 26 [hereinafter Mike Love Settles Lawsuit]. There were allegations that in 1969, Murry Wilson, the father of Brian Wilson (another co-founder of the group) transferred to Irving Music rights he did not own (Love’s, among others). Beach Boy Mike Love Sues Irving Music in California, ENT. LITIG. REP.,""Sept. 7, 1992, LEXIS, News Library, Entlit File. Love was to have received thirty percent of the $10 million settlement Brian Wilson (the group’s principal songwriter) received in his 1989 lawsuit against Irving Music. Mike Love Settles Lawsuit, supra. When he was not paid, Love sued Brian Wilson in 1992. After a jury declared Love co-author and co-owner of thirty-five Beach Boys songs, Love and Brian Wilson settled the dispute for $5 million in cash and future royalties moving from Brian Wilson to Love. Id."
Check it out: I don't have a problem admitting when I'm wrong, and if you find an instance where I have been proven wrong, I'll be the first to admit it for anyone who cares to read. Which means that you can be sure that I'm not going to post something outside of the realm of opinion unless I have a pretty damned good idea that I'm correct. You, on the other hand, never even bothered to acknowledge that it was convenient to yr argument to suggest that Berklee was a place where something as non-musical as hip-hop would ever be taught--until I found a link to the page where it turns out they are teaching it. Never an acknowledgment. Yet you come on so superior, like you're the only person on this board who knows anything about multi-track recording, or something. It gets a bit tiresome. I really have no desire to be angry or spiteful, in spite of the tone of yr posts from some months back. I think it would be in the interest of fairness for you to at least learn to admit a mistake, even if it's under the anonymity of a message board. Unless you have info that refutes what I've posted above, here's the perfect opportunity to start. It's really not that difficult. And doing so would be a move that would gain my respect, not that you're interested.
Exerpt from intervue with Tony Asher (one of Brian's REAL co-writers:
"Mike recently sued Brian for writing credit to around 30 songs among which was "Wouldn't It Be Nice". What role did Mike have in writing that song?
None, whatsoever. As most people know, the Beach Boys were on tour during the writing of that song. During the trial, Mike's attorney asked me how I could be so sure Mike hadn't influenced the writing of that song. "After all, " he speculated, "wasn't Mr. Wilson out of your sight from time to time? Didn't he go to the bathroom, or leave the room periodically for one reason or another? And couldn't he have been taking a phone call from Mr. Love during one of those absences?" These guys get paid big bucks for this kind of absurdity. At any rate, I answered that, while it was true Mr. Love could have called Mr. Wilson on one of those occasions, it was doubtful it had any influence, since "Wouldn't It Be Nice" was one of the few songs I wrote the entire lyric to by myself at home. "Mr. Love did not then," I explained, "and I pray does not now, have my home phone number."
So where does Mike's claim come from? Is he just making this stuff up out of some kind of jealousy or rage toward Brian or does he really believe he wrote some of the lyrics to that song?I think he would say that it is based upon things that were added at sessions that could be characterized, I suppose, in the loosest sense of the word, as lyrics. I'm talking about background vocals like the typical "doo-wha's" and "dum-diddies" that occur in many songs, not only from the Beach Boys. Lyrics of that type have always been considered part of the "arrangement" of songs and those supplying them, such as vocal arrangers, have never been given part of the songwriting royalties for such contributions, although I suppose an argument could be made that they should. Actually, I believe that a far stronger argument can be made for giving arrangers royalties so at least part of their compensation would be based upon the success of a record since their arrangement, like the producer's production, is -- in my opinion -- often a real factor in the commercial-ness of the record. But I wouldn't favor giving everyone who ever wrote a "ram-a-lam-a-ding-dong" part of the songwriting credits."
So, now I have proven your argumentive ass wrong. Mike Loves lawyers, much like YOU, blow hot air up peoples asses. Among the questions asked to Tony Asher by Mr Loves attorneys were "Were you with Brian at all times? Did you accompany him to the restroom, shower? Did you sleep with him"? They then concluded that perhaps Mike Love co-wrote songs with Brian while he was taking a shit. I come here and give credit to an amazing songwriter, and an extraordinary song, and you turn it into a fucking arguement. What the fuck is wrong with you anyway, J? Grow up, for christs sake. I refuse to reply to your posts anymore, adding you to the growing number of assholes in this forum that I refuse to answer.
I'm sure you'll get some kind of sick fucking satisfaction out of that. You need a goddamn shrink dude. Do they provide that sort of thing where your wife teaches? Look into it.
It was legally decided that Mike Love co-wrote those songs, yet you of course know better. Tony Asher said so, and he's more of an authority than the law & the State of California & principles of copyright, right? If you're willing to accept that interview as evidence, over what was decided legally, then you're even dumber than I thought. If you think I'm a Mike Love fan, than you're even dumber than that. And if you haven't gone & read the unbelievably insipid lyrics to some of the tunes in question, yet still insist that Mike Love had nothing to do with them, then you take the cake. Ask yrself this: Why would Brian go & hire a guy like Tony Asher in the first place? For the last time, if you knew as much about the BBs as you think you do...the answer is, because he didn't care to rely on the meager talents of Mike Love as a wordsmith once he no longer had people like Gary Usher & Roger Christian to rely on for collaboration.I'm not sure why you'd think that Mike Love had great lawyers, but Brian, even in the Landy-esque state he may have still been in at the time of the trial, would employ stooges that would allow Love to walk away with the settlement he got--especially based on cross-examination like the sort Tony Asher refers to. Does Mike Love deserve credit for a song like 'Wouldn't It Be Nice?' It would seem not--it would seem of course not. But there are others, plenty of others. I'm not sure why it was taken down, but I remember reading extensive essays on the trial, written by a Brian fan and once posted on Cabinessence.com (although they may have moved it from where I originally found it) that went into great detail to explain how Mike Love actually had a very good case--in conflict with Tony Asher's report. The Brian fan walked away believing, and grudgingly admitting, that Mike Love deserved the credit for those songs. The settlement was mighty substantial. But although it was decided in a legally binding settlement that Mike Love co-wrote those songs, you know better. Right? Hey, you must've been there. Mike Love got credit for a bunch of 'doo-wop's & 'chitty chitty bang bang's. No way he wrote forced rhymes & sub-adolescent odes to puppy love. No way!
If you live in a world where a small anecdote from a guy who was in & out of Brian Wilson's life in short order nearly 40 years ago over what was decided in a court of law (in, again, a settlement, not a verdict, meaning Brian buckled in a case where, had Mike Love had nothing to do with co-writing those songs, it makes no sense that he would have, Landy hangover or not), all I can say is it doesn't surprise me. Hardly a shocker that a guy like you is willing to take even the smallest step of admitting a mistake. Furthermore, if there's anyone's mental health you're worried about, I suggest you look in the mirror, pal. You've obviously forgotten about yr wild & incoherent posts of several months ago (not to mention the issue of Berklee, which, again, you don't bother to mention). Gee, I seem to remember a post one day that collected a whole bunch of my posts, including wildly divergent points of view. What you were too inept to notice is that these divergent points of view were the result of my having attributed the posts of others to add context to my own responses. And they were attributed. No surprise you don't even understand how message boards work.
You don't want to respond to me any more, boo-effin' hoo. Somehow I think I'll find the strength to greet another day. But when I get up in the morning I know damn well that if I say something & someone proves me wrong, I'm willing to own up to it. You are not, and therefore even less worthy of my respect than if it were just a dumb-ass argument about rap music. Don't worry, I won't bother you anymore. As always, I do think you should consider keeping a slightly open mind. There's always the possibility that someone might come along who's correct on a music-related issue that you, Mr. Music Business Professional Musician, are not. Have a wonderfully crappy day.
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