In Reply to: Re: Can you show me mathematically how it can be done. posted by john curl on September 3, 2006 at 11:47:35:
I'll probably regret asking but I tried to devise an absolute worst case scenario for phono preamp output maximum slew rate and still come up with a full order of magnitude less than what you say is unacceptable. Here are my numbers, where do we disagree?A high output low cost mm cartridge could have an output in the vacinity of 5 mv for 3.54 cm/sec stylus velocity (high quality mm units have about half or less that output.) A worst case waveform for slewing could be a cymbal crash transient at maximum modulation velocity subsequent to complete silence. Cymbals reportedly have a great deal of sound energy in the 11 khz region. I'm going to assume the outrageously high output of 25 mv at 10 khz resulting from about a 17.5 cm/sec instantaneous stylus velocity. This is about 10 times the typical phono preamp sensitivity and I'd guess near or in excess of the overload point of many phono preamp stages. The period of 10 khz is 100us (microseconds) but the waveform reaches its first peak in 1/4 that time or 25us so the slew rate would be 25mv/25us = 1mv/1us = .001V/us. Assuming the phono preamp has a sensitivity in the range of 2 mv and a gain of 100 to match the high level input sensitivity of 200 mv for 1 volt output, the maximum slew rate at the phono preamp output would be 100 mv/us = 0.1V/us But you said 1V/us is not adequate and you would need to see 5V/us or better. Do you have an explanation? Data? Assumptions? Arithmetic errors?
In informal but careful listening tests looking for cartridge mistracking many years ago, the output of the Shure M91ED cartridge tracking at 1.5 g in an Empire 980 arm connected to Dynaco PAT4/Stereo 120 and to an AR amplifier driving KLH6 speakers playing the cymbal crash test on the Shure Audio Obstacle Course record sounded the same from band 1 through band 4 except for loudness. I got the same results with Shure V15 Type II improved tracking at 3/4 gram. Of course these were different preamps from PAS3X and you would probably consider all of this equipment "mid fi" by your standards. The point is that I didn't notice any difference in sound due to what you suggest are the slew rate limitations of the inexpensive M91ED cartridge, unless of course you would say that the V15 Type II is no better and also slew rate limited. I'd agree that many MC cartridges are capable of faster maximum slew rates typically due to about a 5 db peak in the 15 khz range resulting from an undamped mechanical resonance. This was typical for example of many Ortofon cartridges and possibly in a way audibly desirable during an era when many speaker systems had a significant high frequency rolloff and people were obsessed with keeping their tone controls at the detented 0 setting if they couldn't switch them out of the circuit altogether. Now of course they don't want to even see a tone control on a preamp.
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Follow Ups
- Let's compare numbers and see why mine are different from yours - Soundmind 04:15:13 09/04/06 (54)
- Re: Let's compare numbers and see why mine are different from yours - john curl 07:57:36 09/04/06 (53)
- Re: Let's compare numbers and see why mine are different from yours - Soundmind 10:56:50 09/04/06 (52)
- Many can hear beyond 20KHz. - cheap-Jack 13:30:54 09/06/06 (9)
- Re: Many can hear beyond 20KHz - DeBunked? - jcox 20:55:04 09/06/06 (0)
- Re: Many can hear beyond 20KHz. - Soundmind 16:28:49 09/06/06 (7)
- It can be perceived, however. - jneutron 06:10:37 09/07/06 (6)
- Hearing is only part of the human aural perception. - cheap-Jack 09:05:20 09/07/06 (3)
- Re: Hearing is only part of the human aural perception. - Soundmind 11:44:15 09/07/06 (0)
- Re: Hearing is only part of the human aural perception. - jneutron 09:15:54 09/07/06 (1)
- Re: Hearing is only part of the human aural perception. - Soundmind 11:46:14 09/07/06 (0)
- Re: It can be perceived, however. - Soundmind 07:55:03 09/07/06 (1)
- Re: It can be perceived, however. - jneutron 08:30:10 09/07/06 (0)
- Re: Let's compare numbers and see why mine are different from yours - jneutron 06:24:48 09/05/06 (39)
- Re: Let's compare numbers and see why mine are different from yours - Soundmind 04:40:41 09/06/06 (33)
- Re: Let's compare numbers and see why mine are different from yours - jneutron 06:18:12 09/06/06 (32)
- Re: Let's compare numbers and see why mine are different from yours - Soundmind 07:43:21 09/06/06 (31)
- Re: Let's compare numbers and see why mine are different from yours - jneutron 08:18:00 09/06/06 (30)
- Re: Let's compare numbers and see why mine are different from yours - Soundmind 13:16:01 09/06/06 (18)
- Re: Let's compare numbers and see why mine are different from yours - jneutron 13:44:12 09/06/06 (17)
- Re: Let's compare numbers and see why mine are different from yours - Soundmind 14:29:45 09/06/06 (16)
- Re: Let's compare numbers and see why mine are different from yours - jneutron 06:51:57 09/07/06 (7)
- Re: Let's compare numbers and see why mine are different from yours - john curl 10:48:27 09/08/06 (1)
- Where are you reading this stuff?? - jneutron 06:31:00 09/11/06 (0)
- Re: Let's compare numbers and see why mine are different from yours - Soundmind 07:49:19 09/07/06 (4)
- Re: Let's compare numbers and see why mine are different from yours - john curl 12:12:17 09/08/06 (0)
- my goodness, please read the posts again. - jneutron 08:23:59 09/07/06 (2)
- Re: my goodness, please read the posts again. - Soundmind 12:08:51 09/07/06 (1)
- Re: my goodness, please read the posts again. - jneutron 12:44:07 09/07/06 (0)
- Re: Let's compare numbers and see why mine are different from yours - john curl 22:17:05 09/06/06 (7)
- Re: Let's compare numbers and see why mine are different from yours - Soundmind 04:53:01 09/07/06 (6)
- Re: Let's compare numbers and see why mine are different from yours - john curl 08:44:45 09/07/06 (5)
- Re: Let's compare numbers and see why mine are different from yours - Soundmind 11:41:05 09/07/06 (4)
- Re: Let's compare numbers and see why mine are different from yours - john curl 12:29:21 09/07/06 (3)
- Re: Let's compare numbers and see why mine are different from yours - Soundmind 15:07:11 09/07/06 (2)
- Re: Let's compare numbers and see why mine are different from yours - john curl 15:18:42 09/07/06 (1)
- Re: Let's compare numbers and see why mine are different from yours - Soundmind 17:01:00 09/07/06 (0)
- John, your concern has been know for nearly 25 years... - Jacques 09:26:58 09/06/06 (10)
- Nice - jneutron 11:06:42 09/06/06 (9)
- Answers for what I know and technical comment on PIM - Jacques 07:49:13 09/07/06 (8)
- Re: Answers for what I know and technical comment on PIM - jneutron 09:00:51 09/07/06 (7)
- PIM and other tests - Jacques 11:22:30 09/07/06 (6)
- Re: PIM and other tests - jneutron 11:35:16 09/07/06 (5)
- Your load resistor - Jacques 01:07:43 09/08/06 (4)
- Sure - jneutron 06:53:50 09/08/06 (3)
- If you have the build sequence - Jacques 07:52:02 09/08/06 (2)
- Picture 8 did not make it, the message did not state why. - jneutron 11:41:20 09/08/06 (0)
- Got pics of the whole shebang - jneutron 09:05:00 09/08/06 (0)
- Re: Let's compare numbers and see why mine are different from yours - csero 17:00:37 09/05/06 (4)
- your post confused me.. - jneutron 05:59:55 09/06/06 (3)
- I think he is saying the same thing I am even if somewhat obliquely and without explanation - Soundmind 07:47:09 09/06/06 (2)
- Honestly, I'm not sure..perhaps he should be allowed to elaborate? nt - jneutron 08:19:48 09/06/06 (1)
- I'd be the last one who'd want to stop him....elaborate away nt - Soundmind 13:17:24 09/06/06 (0)
- Re: Let's compare numbers and see why mine are different from yours - john curl 11:47:54 09/04/06 (1)
- I still don't understand why our numbers are so different - Soundmind 13:52:31 09/04/06 (0)