Anyone ran horn speakers with Class D amps?

RE: Anyone ran horn speakers with Class D amps?, posted on April 20, 2024 at 08:11:13
Tre' Industry Professional Posts: 17618 Location: So. Cal. Joined: February 9, 2002	"I know they sound good for PA gear" The horn speakers or the Class D amplifiers? Or both? Tre' Have Fun and Enjoy the Music "Still Working the Problem"

RE: Anyone ran horn speakers with Class D amps?, posted on April 20, 2024 at 08:40:05

cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2494
Joined: September 27, 2004

Yes, I run Avantgarde Duo XD horn speakers powered by NAD M33 all-in-one.

I chose this Purifi Eigentakt based amp after home auditioning 12 ss amps of all flavours. I was expecting one of the Class A amps would enthrall me, but I chose the Class D in the end. Other amps that offered excellent sound were Accuphase A36, Mark Levinson 5805 and GamuT D200.

Since then I've purchase Atma-Sphere Class D Monos and there also sound great with horns.

Not all Class D is good and not even all Purifi Eigentakt is good so carefully choose you amp to match well with your horns.

RE: Anyone ran horn speakers with Class D amps?, posted on April 20, 2024 at 10:05:54
Tom Brennan Audiophile Posts: 5863 Joined: January 2, 2000	I used a Rogue Sphinx hybrid integrated (tube preamp, Class D amp) for a while with Altec 890C Boleros and then Altec 604Es. It was fine but I went back to using a conventional SS Marantz integrated and sometimes a HH Scott tube integrated. Nothing wrong sonically with the Rogue but I preferred the features of the Marantz, especially its superiority with headphones.

The Class D amps. , posted on April 20, 2024 at 11:08:04
Cougar Audiophile Posts: 4642 Location: SoCal Joined: June 25, 2001	but could be both.

Thank You for the info, posted on April 20, 2024 at 14:59:56
Cougar Audiophile Posts: 4642 Location: SoCal Joined: June 25, 2001	I'm asking because I really want to use the Hypex Nilai 500 mono block kits with my 2 way diy build. I have the Crown 1501 and 2502 XLS amps but wanted to try the better Class D amps.

Thank You..., posted on April 20, 2024 at 15:01:52
Cougar Audiophile Posts: 4642 Location: SoCal Joined: June 25, 2001	I was thinking of using the Crown amps I mention in the other reply. But I want to use the better Class D amps like the Hypex Nilai 500 Mono Block kits.

RE: Thank You for the info, posted on April 21, 2024 at 13:00:43
cawson@onetel.com Audiophile Posts: 2494 Joined: September 27, 2004	Why would you ever be looking at a 500 watt amp to drive horns? Granted Class D is a cheap way to get 500 watts but for horns perhaps look towards fewer watts of higher quality such as the ones I've suggested. In any event arrange to borrow a few short-listed amps before you commit, as the matches with speakers and room are more important than the basic spec can indicate.

What the world needs is Ultra low-noise, Ultra-transparent 5 watt class D amp, posted on April 21, 2024 at 13:36:31
Jon L Audiophile Posts: 6168 Joined: April 6, 2000	For our horn speakers. I have multipole class-D and GaN amps, not to mention SS and many tube amps, but many high-power amps simply have too high a noise floor on 110db+ sensitive horns. I wish for Ultra low-noise, Ultra-transparent 5 watt class D amp powered from batteries at their native voltage without regulators...at a low price.

These will be used...., posted on April 21, 2024 at 19:07:49
Cougar Audiophile Posts: 4642 Location: SoCal Joined: June 25, 2001	with my other lower efficient speakers along with the horns project. Years ago I ran Counterpoint SA-1000 with Phase Linear into my then Altec Model 14's, sound really nice and not noisy at all.

yes but, posted on April 22, 2024 at 12:28:28

tomservo
Manufacturer

Posts: 8741
Joined: July 4, 2002

There has been a change in the way amp's work or rather how they behave.

In the old days (before class D evolved from servomotors in robotics to audio) an amplifier rated at say 400Watts into 4 Ohms could put out a 40 Volt sine wave into 4 Ohms = 10 Amps times 40Volts = 400 Watts RMS.
At this point if you asked for say 43 Volts, the top of the sine wave would be flat topped (on a good day).

Back when Ice power amps came out, they used a somewhat different way to rate the power. Initially i didn't like it but actually this makes more sense.

The reason can be seen looking at the power rating of loudspeakers where it isn't a sine wave but pink noise or shaped pink noise that is the signal.
For example the standard noise signal used now has a 10dB crest factor, meaning that the average power (how much heat is produced) is 1/10th the largest peak values.
So if one wanted to deliver 400 Watts with this noise signal to a loudspeaker, you actually need a 4000 Watt amplifier to produce the entire signal.

So the class D amp's like the ice power amps can deliver a much larger peak signal than the continuous value.

For example i used on of those amps that could deliver a peak of 1000Watts...for some seconds and then scaled down ward. If driving a continuous signal after the amplifier heated up, the output scaled back to around 60 Watts, not 1000.

Ok why the change and does it make sense?

Well yes but it makes it much harder to tell what's going on.

The most compressed FM radio signal you can find, still has a crest factor of around 10dB, a decent recording can be around 20dB which means the average level is 1/100 the power of the large peaks. Some exotic recordings can be more, a crest factor of 30dB means the peaks are 1000 times larger than the average level and 40dB is 10,000:1 .

So it may come as a surprise to know that when one reads the SPL with a meter, even on "fast", what you see is an average level, same looking at Voltage with a simpson260, a fast average.

Funny thing, if you look at the output of an amplifier and you play music loudly what you see is well before you hear "amplifier clipping" from the speakers, you will see it on the oscilloscope. You can't hear it as "clipping" until it lasts long enough.

But you can detect it if you can compare back and forth to an un-clipped signal. The unclipped signal (music in our test) sounded a little more dynamic and it actually was.

Bottom line, if your going to try a class D amp, pick one with a good rep and maybe try a larger one than you would normally get. The dynamics present in some modern recordings can literally give one goose bumps.

hope that helps
Tom

RE: yes but, posted on April 22, 2024 at 21:20:08

Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4642
Location: SoCal
Joined: June 25, 2001

Thank You for the info. I always use more power than is suggested.

I had always used a least 200 watt SS amps and then one day when I had some Vandersteen 3A's I was given two Classe M700 mono block amps to try out. I will never forget how big of an improvement they made and how real the system sounded. This was the best I every heard my system sound.

The reason I asked the question was due to maybe the Horns and the Class would not be a good match sound wise, maybe a little to bright sounding?

I did notice at first when I used the Crown XLS 1502 in my system it was more bright than my EDGE M8 amp I was using for years. Just don't want to buy something that will not work sound wise with this project. Or I can just get the Schiit Aegir 2 Class A amp.

RE: yes but, posted on April 23, 2024 at 03:58:09
cawson@onetel.com Audiophile Posts: 2494 Joined: September 27, 2004	Don't worry about matching Class D with horns - a good Class D will offer as exciting a listen as a good SET at 3 times the price. Don't go for a cheapo amp though as I mentioned earlier in this thread. If in doubt, try to get a demo unit for a week or so. Top brand dealers such as NAD or T+A should be happy to arrange but unlikely if you are thinking of basic stuff offered on eBay etc.

Yes- for the last 3 years. , posted on April 23, 2024 at 14:22:01
Ralph Manufacturer Posts: 4863 Location: Minnesota Joined: April 24, 2002	I used to run class A triode tube amps but the class D amps are just as smooth and involving. I don't miss anything about the tube amps I used prior- the class Ds sound very similar but are slightly more transparent. Some class D amps will sound great and others will sound like a joke. They are not all the same IOW.

RE: Yes- for the last 3 years. , posted on April 23, 2024 at 22:16:25
Cougar Audiophile Posts: 4642 Location: SoCal Joined: June 25, 2001	Ralph, Thank You for the info. I will look more into getting a nice Class D amp for my 2 way DIY horns.

RE: yes but, posted on April 23, 2024 at 22:18:05
Cougar Audiophile Posts: 4642 Location: SoCal Joined: June 25, 2001	Thank you for the info. I will start saving looking into a nice Class D amp for my Project.

They are lower noise too- well over -100dB, posted on April 24, 2024 at 09:03:44
Ralph Manufacturer Posts: 4863 Location: Minnesota Joined: April 24, 2002	Really helps with horns as you well know :)

RE: They are lower noise too- well over -100dB, posted on April 24, 2024 at 09:31:24
Cougar Audiophile Posts: 4642 Location: SoCal Joined: June 25, 2001	I will need that too since the speakers will be around 97-98db. I just want something lite and will break my back moving them when need too.

That's the same efficiency as my speakers, posted on April 24, 2024 at 09:35:19
Ralph Manufacturer Posts: 4863 Location: Minnesota Joined: April 24, 2002	I have to put my head in the mouth of the horn to hear anything when the system is at idle.

That's pretty quiet..., posted on April 24, 2024 at 09:58:46
Cougar Audiophile Posts: 4642 Location: SoCal Joined: June 25, 2001	and what I'm looking for from a speaker amp combo on top of best SQ.

RE: Yes- for the last 3 years. , posted on April 24, 2024 at 12:31:41
cawson@onetel.com Audiophile Posts: 2494 Joined: September 27, 2004	Exactly. As I said in my earlier post, a first-class Class D will match or better any other amp. I decided to move from valve SETs to Class D and am del8ghted not to have lost any of the musical enjoyment I want from my system.

RE: They are lower noise too- well over -100dB, posted on May 19, 2024 at 09:52:35

cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2494
Joined: September 27, 2004

My horn speakers are 107 dB, so even the slightest noise isn't welcome.

I have the choice of 2 Class D amps - Purifi Eigentakt in my NAD M33 (built under license by NAD with Purifi-approved enhancements) and Ralph's Atma-Sphere Class D mono amps.

Switching between the 2 with volume adjustment for the A-S lower output, I'm at a loss to decide which is better. I'm hoping that a better source (likely to be the new NAD M66) may hopefully reveal the A-S amps as the winner.

RE: Anyone ran horn speakers with Class D amps?, posted on May 23, 2024 at 22:29:10
Tarzan Audiophile Posts: 197 Location: UK, Essex Joined: May 2, 2003	Hi, yes l run a tweaked Virtue Audio Sensation M901 with Impulse H6 ( quasi horn) in the lounge system and it sounds superb! Also running a Fosi v3 as a power amplifier and a valve pre amp into Audionote ANK/LX and this sounds off the charts good.

RE: Anyone ran horn speakers with Class D amps?, posted on August 22, 2024 at 06:43:07

Rooze
Audiophile

Posts: 96
Joined: December 20, 2003

Best sound I got from a pair of stacked Oris 150 with custom bass cabs was using digital - Lyngdorf TDAi2200 on the towers and a Tact digital on the cabs.
Had similar experiences more recently running digital amps on Klipsch Khorns, Altec Valencia and VOTT A7. Digital amps used - Hypex modules in Veloce Audio Saetta, Henry Ho S250, PS Audio M700, Lyngdorg TDAi 2170 and more.

Digital and high-eff do go together well. Hearing is believing.

RE: Anyone ran horn speakers with Class D amps?, posted on September 23, 2024 at 14:44:26
KanedaK Audiophile Posts: 2522 Location: Brussels Joined: April 27, 2010	Yes. I'm actively bi-amping my fully horn loaded system with Tripath amplifiers, and those sound MARVELOUS with horns. Tripath amps are the most tube-like of all class D amps, actually more tube-like than many class AB SS amps.

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Anyone ran horn speakers with Class D amps?

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