Happy Birthday, SACD! You are 25 years old today!!

A few of things as it seems to me.

First, technically there never was a good case that SACD was superior to high-resolution PCM.

Secondly, Sony, as usual for the company, abused its quasi-monopoly power by trying by controlling licensing of SACD technology -- shades of the failure of the Beta video format.

Many audiophiles were able or particularly interested in multi-channel which ability SACD could provide. As I recall(?), early Sony player could only play SACDs, not CDs.

Sony considered the extreme difficulty of copying, i.e. ripping SACD disks to be an important advantage of the medium. Early SACDs weren't hybrid, that is, they lacked a CD layers and could not easily be ripped. IMHO, the effective copy-protection of the SACD layers hurt acceptance of the medium in the longer term.

And yet many Classical music recordings are still multi-channel and distributed on SACDs. That's a good thing, but it would be better if Sony allowed ripping those discs to

Dmitri Shostakovich

Ripping SACDs is relatively easy. , posted on May 23, 2024 at 06:57:45
Kal Rubinson Reviewer Posts: 12539 Location: New York Joined: June 5, 2002	And has been for years.

RE: I guess that birthday is not so happy, posted on May 23, 2024 at 08:25:56

Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 3013
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001

There are not many SACDs that are true DSD recordings. Most are recorded in PCM and converted to DSD and written to SACD. The advantage of these SACD recordings is that they could carry a high resolution file to a silver disk. But there is no reason to suppose thay have an advantage over high resolution PCM. Perhaps, due to yet another conversion, a disadvantage.

Some of the best SACDs, IMO, are old recordings where analog masters are converted to DSD and SACD without the intervention of PCM at any stage.

And as Kal writes, we have been ripping SACDs for many years.

RE: Happy Birthday, SACD! You are 25 years old today!!, posted on May 24, 2024 at 02:52:23
fantja Audiophile Posts: 15742 Location: Alabama Joined: September 11, 2010	Celebrate!

I rip hybrid SACDs all the time, posted on May 24, 2024 at 03:51:25
Feanor Audiophile Posts: 10124 Location: London, Ontario Joined: June 17, 2003 Contributor Since: March 12, 2004	That is, the stereo Red Book layer. I'd like to know how to rip the (stereo) SACD layer to, say, 24/88 without going thru hoops. Dmitri Shostakovich

Me, too., posted on May 24, 2024 at 05:54:57

Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

Posts: 12539
Location: New York
Joined: June 5, 2002

The information is all over the place.

In my particular setup, I use an Oppo disc player but there are about 2 dozen other players that are known to work.
1. Insert USB drive in the Oppo. (I leave it there since I no longer use it to play discs.)
2. Insert SACD.
3. Open the ripping app on any of my computers and click to start ripping. (There is a menu to select what and how to rip but, since I always use the same parameters, there's generally no need to bother with it.)
3. That's it. Takes less than a minute to do. Completion time depends on the particular disc and your ripping preferences.)

RE: Me, too., posted on May 25, 2024 at 14:09:24
pbarach Audiophile Posts: 3405 Location: Ohio Joined: June 22, 2008	I use the same procedure as Kal. For backup, if my Oppo 103 dies, I also have a cheap used Sony BluRay player that can play SACDs and also has the chip that allows ripping of SACDs.

"As I recall(?), early Sony player could only play SACDs, not CDs" Your recollection is wrong, posted on May 26, 2024 at 07:46:20
Jazz Inmate Audiophile Posts: 63960 Location: Bay Area, California Joined: April 5, 2000	You may be thinking about the early SACD titles themselves from Sony, which didn't have a CD layer. All the players could of course play CDs. Some notable recent and ongoing releases: Miles Davis - The Complete Live at Plugged Nickel 8-SACD set. The 75 Atlantic and the Steely Dan titles from Acoustic Sounds, Joni Mitchel titles from MFSL. A steady stream of classical titles.

In Stereophile's review in 1999, posted on May 26, 2024 at 08:00:14

Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17618
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002

"There are two independent optical pickups: one operating at Super Audio CD's 650nm wavelength, one for CD's 780nm wavelength."

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

https://www.stereophile.com/content/sony-scd-1-super-audio-c

You're probably right, posted on May 27, 2024 at 04:32:48
Feanor Audiophile Posts: 10124 Location: London, Ontario Joined: June 17, 2003 Contributor Since: March 12, 2004	For sure I have several older SACD discs with no CD layer. Dmitri Shostakovich

You might start here..., posted on May 27, 2024 at 10:39:00

Jim Treanor
Audiophile

Posts: 2172
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: June 1, 2003

I use a cheap (what I picked up for $60 used) Sony BluRay player to rip SACDs and, in my case, the Windows iteration of the SACD extraction software listed at the link. Mac and Linux versions are also linked there.

Jim

SACD Ripper Releases for Mac, Windows, Linux

Interesting, but I wonder ..., posted on May 29, 2024 at 04:25:57
Feanor Audiophile Posts: 10124 Location: London, Ontario Joined: June 17, 2003 Contributor Since: March 12, 2004	My Sony BluRay plays SACDs but the output is PCM via HDMI; I'm not sure if it's hi-rez. I'd be fine with hi-rez PCM. I would need to "intercept" the HDMI output and route it do a Windows ripper program ... any suggestions on how to do that? Dmitri Shostakovich

RE: Interesting, but I wonder ..., posted on May 29, 2024 at 09:54:02

Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

Posts: 12539
Location: New York
Joined: June 5, 2002

It can be HiRez but you need something to tell you, if you really care. You also need to define "hi-res."

You can play from HDMI but you cannot rip from it. In order to rip the data from the SACD, you need to have one of the many suitable BDPs and access the data via USB or network.

OK; BDP = BluRay Disk Player ?? ~n, posted on May 30, 2024 at 04:45:53
Feanor Audiophile Posts: 10124 Location: London, Ontario Joined: June 17, 2003 Contributor Since: March 12, 2004	nt Dmitri Shostakovich

RE: OK; BDP = BluRay Disk Player ?? ~n, posted on May 30, 2024 at 12:44:46

Jim Treanor
Audiophile

Posts: 2172
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: June 1, 2003

Several years ago I picked up two used Sony S590s for $60 each and have used them to rip SACDs. A number of other Sony players are capable, and so are some Pioneer, Oppo, and some other manufacturers' BluRay models that will work as well. At the time, I documented the ripping procedure in a memo as follows:

Here's how I step-by-step rip SACDs on my S590s.

Beginning the rip process from a cold start:

1. Set the player to Quick Start mode. (And don't change it. You should have to do this only once if you leave your S590 connected in "standby" mode.)
2. Use the remote to turn the player "ON". (The 590's own display screen should read "Home" or "Empty".)
3. Insert the flash drive with the Autoscript folder in either of the player's USB slots. (I use the front slot for convenience.)
4. After the disc tray opens, remove the flash drive from the USB slot.
5. Insert an SACD you want to rip in the disc tray.
6. Close the disc tray with the remote's green ON/OFF button. That puts the player to sleep.
7. Open ISO2DSD (or SACDExtractGUI) on the computer that's on the network with the 590.
8. Click "Execute" in ISO2DSD ("Run" in SACDExtractGUI).
9. The program should begin the rip process and display the rip's progress for each track until the process for that SACD is announced as "DONE".
10. Remove the SACD, opening the disc tray with the remote's "Open/Close" button.
11. Insert the next SACD you want to rip, and close the tray with the remote's ON/OFF button.
12. Click "Execute" in ISO2DSD (or "Run " in SACDExtract GUI).
13. And so on until you finish all the rips for a given session.

With the S590, you'll find that it will perform 7 rips before you have to reinitialize it with the Autoscript flash drive. Make sure that the player is "ON" before you insert the flash drive and follow steps 4 through 10 for each successive rip until you've completed another 7 rips. Reinitialize the player again if you have more SACDs to rip.

While ISO2DSD will do the job, I prefer SACDExtractGUI for ease of use and configuration flexibility (e.g., the ability to designate where to put the ripped files on your computer). To use it, you must have Java loaded on your computer.

HTH.

Jim

Do you remember the Norah Jones SACD scandal ?, posted on May 31, 2024 at 18:44:06

AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 47562
Location: Maidenhead Grid Square DM79
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
Since: February 2, 2002

Essentially the Norah Jones "Come Away with Me" SACD was praised by audiophiles for how incredible true SACD sounds. It was later discovered that the SACD was created by just running the 'redbook' PCM data through a DSD converter.

Oops! Now they all backtrack and say, "Oh, in hindsight and second thought it really didn't sound that great after all."

Or something like that. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Snicker snicker.

Wow, many thanks for this, posted on June 1, 2024 at 05:53:51
Feanor Audiophile Posts: 10124 Location: London, Ontario Joined: June 17, 2003 Contributor Since: March 12, 2004	Looks doable if a bit fussy. I hope to give it a try. Dmitri Shostakovich

RE: Do you remember the Norah Jones SACD scandal ?, posted on June 1, 2024 at 14:08:37

pbarach
Audiophile

Posts: 3405
Location: Ohio
Joined: June 22, 2008

I think it sounds pretty good as a redbook CD. But I do remember the scandal. I don't know if Blue Note redid their SACD. They did a 20th anniversary remaster that I've never heard:
https://www.norahjones.com/news-1/2022/2/25/blue-note-announces-20th-anniversary-super-deluxe-edition-of-norah-jones-seminal-debut-album-come-away-with-me

And I see that Analogue Productions also remastered it, and then issued an SACD of that:

https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/81827/Norah_Jones-Come_Away_With_Me-Hybrid_Multichannel_SACD

The Norah Jones catalog is being released on SHM-SACD later this month (nt), posted on June 1, 2024 at 17:50:43
Soundboy Audiophile Posts: 962 Location: Northern CA Joined: May 5, 2000	.

It is a really well recorded album., posted on June 2, 2024 at 14:42:25
G Squared Audiophile Posts: 8805 Location: Washington, DC Metro Area Joined: November 16, 2004 Contributor Since: May 23, 2023	Her version of The Nearness of You is sublime. It is easier to enjoy now that the hype has subsided. Gsquared

I'll say this ..., posted on June 3, 2024 at 04:10:23
Feanor Audiophile Posts: 10124 Location: London, Ontario Joined: June 17, 2003 Contributor Since: March 12, 2004	No, I don't remember that scandal, but I for me, (at my age), 16/44.1 is adequate and sonically I can't tell the difference from higher rez based on for hi-res downloads. I'll also say as I have many times that the recording and mastering are far more important than the digital resolution, at least once you get to 16/44.1. Dmitri Shostakovich

GeerFab DBoB, posted on June 4, 2024 at 13:45:30
Freo-1 Audiophile Posts: 1377 Location: Florida Joined: June 14, 2008	This is one product that works as advertised. I added one to my system, and the Devialet Expert Pro 1000 processes the the DSD accordingly. Sounds excellent. Also works with the Chord TT and the PS Audio Direct Stream DAC. The PS Audio converts all incoming data streams to DSD. " Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you" Satchel Paige

I think they eventually cleaned up the scandal, posted on June 5, 2024 at 07:04:49
AbeCollins Audiophile Posts: 47562 Location: Maidenhead Grid Square DM79 Joined: June 22, 2001 Contributor Since: February 2, 2002	I bought a later version of the SACD but since the music was so well recorded (as you mentioned) I could barely distinguish the SACD from the PCM redbook version. Which opens my other point that a well recorded PCM will sound just as good as the SACD. They might sound slightly different but I cannot in all honesty say that SACD sounds better.

I can hear the difference, posted on June 5, 2024 at 13:58:30
Freo-1 Audiophile Posts: 1377 Location: Florida Joined: June 14, 2008	Since I obtained a GeerFab DBoB, there is no doubt SACD sounds better than CD. My headphone DACs (PS Audio Direct Stream DAC, Chord Hugo TT), as well as the loudspeaker setup (Devialet 1000 Pro) does sound better with SACD over the CD version. With 192 KHz PCM, it's much closer. " Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you" Satchel Paige

RE: I think they eventually cleaned up the scandal, posted on June 6, 2024 at 15:34:53
G Squared Audiophile Posts: 8805 Location: Washington, DC Metro Area Joined: November 16, 2004 Contributor Since: May 23, 2023	As far as influence over my listening experience, recording quality is king. I may be biased since my DAC tops out as 192,24 and my SACD player is stored with my TT. Gsquared

RE: I can hear the difference, posted on June 7, 2024 at 08:06:35
AbeCollins Audiophile Posts: 47562 Location: Maidenhead Grid Square DM79 Joined: June 22, 2001 Contributor Since: February 2, 2002	I can't argue with what you hear. In my experience SACD does sound a little different but not necessarily better. But that's just my take on it compared to well recorded PCM.

RE: I can hear the difference, posted on June 7, 2024 at 08:27:12
Freo-1 Audiophile Posts: 1377 Location: Florida Joined: June 14, 2008	That is why I put a caveat with hi-res PCM, which is (generally) a step up from Redbook CD. I certainly understand that each persons experience will indeed vary. FWIW, with my current systems, I have noticed that the deltas between SACD and CD are much easier to discern with a high end headphone setup. " Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you" Satchel Paige

RE: You might start here..., posted on June 11, 2024 at 15:07:26
stvnharr Audiophile Posts: 660 Joined: November 6, 2003	Everything you need to know is here: https://hifihaven.org/index.php?threads/rip-sacd-with-a-blu-ray-player.3652/

RE: I guess that birthday is not so happy, posted on June 28, 2024 at 13:48:19

cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2494
Joined: September 27, 2004

In fact, CD ripping has been "illegal" for decades - just read the Copyright notice on every CD label. Early on, the only people ripping their CDs were barrow-boys who re-sold ripped copies of CDs - clearly illegal.

Since streaming became an end-user option, people have ripped their CD collections for different reasons, but they still can put themselves the wrong side of the law if they resell (or technically even give away) their original CDs. Since artists historically receive their royalties on CD sales (and LPs and radio plays, etc), if you rip and resell your original CD, there are then 2 people (you and the person who buys your original disc) who benefit from the performance, but the artist has received only a single royalty.

Ripping your own collection for your own use while you retain the original disc is legal, but allowing another person to benefit from the performance is not.

Sony did shoot themselves in the foot with Betamax (a superior format than VHS in most respects), because they didn't want to license other brands to use their technology. For years the only Beta machines were Sony ones and they tended to be costlier (and better built) than most VHS machines. All very sad because most of the world, apart from South America, lost out on the advantages of Beta. However, their pro version, Betacam, was immensely successful and for a couple of decades was the format of choice once Umatic became obsolete. Betacam developed into Digital Betacam and this remained the broadcast standard until solid state recording took over from tape.

SACD was clearly superior to Red Book but failed for a number of (in retrospect) fairly obvious reasons. It was Sony's baby and they arguably over-protected it (as they did with Betamax) and it required a more advanced player. It couldn't be used with an external DAC and it couldn't be downloaded from domestic machines for copyright reasons. The extra cost of the player and the media meant small sales and there were other rival technologies, including HDCD and DVD-Audio, but none offered the universal acceptance that Red Book CDs have enjoyed since they were first introduced. Streaming has of course decimated all these spinning disc technologies, so we are left with pretty-much obsolete CD, SACD, Laser Disc and other fringe players.

RE: I can hear the difference, posted on September 1, 2024 at 13:17:21
SoundMann Audiophile Posts: 638 Joined: October 21, 2015	High order DSD sounds significantly better, even when downconverted to PCM.

Hi-Rez Highway

Happy Birthday, SACD! You are 25 years old today!!

73.15.80.205