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oversized ,,,, overbuilt ,,,,, overpriced ....... the new way of audiophiles ...

172.58.208.148
Posted on July 15, 2024 at 16:31:10
trioderob
 what's with the trend the last ten years to overbuild and overprice everything ?

do we really need half million dollar systems ,,,,,, 500 pound amps .... 275 pound preamps and 800 pound speakers ?


I remember years ago when the most extreme system you could even dream about was a all compression driver Goto bass horn full range system ..... maybe a hundred and fifty grand ?

now power cables cost more then my whole system !

stop the insanity !

 

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    ...
this was the end game ..... right here , posted on July 15, 2024 at 16:35:15
trioderob

....

 

RE: oversized ,,,, overbuilt ,,,,, overpriced ....... the new way of audiophiles ..., posted on July 15, 2024 at 17:18:32
Sibelius
Audiophile

Posts: 1495
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Joined: April 4, 2000
 It follows the market. Since now there is so much money flowing out there it's all got to be MORE, just to impress. I mean just look at the super car market. Around here we've got Ferrari's, McLarens, Lambo's...a common sight all.

When I started in all this madness I walked into a dealer, his shop was a humble old retrofitted 1920's house. From the outside you would never know what it was inside. His top o' the line system was thus:

Speakers were Avalon Acoustics Eidelon
TT was an SME 30 with a Koetsu Jade something or other
Amps were Wavestream Kinetics (built by Scott Frankland)
Pre was also a Wavestream I think, or an Aesthetix, can't recall the phono stage.

Total was probably on the order of $100,000 at most. It was amazing. I don't think I could ever hear better. Now, that's chump change, especially here in Silly Valley. Won't impress your Nvidia bro's.

Doesn't matter to me much, hey spend whatever you've got, dealers got to make a living. As long as he doesn't make me feel like a chump for spending my paltry amount of cash on something. My old dealer never made me feel like that when I spent my $800 on the Rega Planet. Of course I did end up getting an SME 20 with a Koetsu Black from him, which wasn't cheap.

 

Well, SOMEBODY's buying that stuff!, posted on July 15, 2024 at 17:49:14
Brian H P
Audiophile

Posts: 1433
Location: Oregon
Joined: December 18, 2012
 Arab oil princes, tech billionaires, stock market shysters, whoever. They may not even be "audiophiles" as we understand the term, but just want the expensivest (and therefore bestest) of everything.

And since that market exists, some manufacturers will naturally want to appeal to it, with flagship products which (ideally) represent the peak of their knowledge and engineering ability. The innovations included in such products, if valid, may eventually trickle down to products that ordinary enthusiasts like us can aspire to. Certainly that's been the case with brands like Focal, Dynaudio, KEF, and numerous others.

There's still plenty of well-designed, well-built affordable equipment out there that sounds really good. It just doesn't get the press coverage of the ultra stuff, because it isn't as spectacular.

 

You think so..., posted on July 15, 2024 at 18:16:58
kootenay
Audiophile

Posts: 8601
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Joined: October 16, 2007

Get a load of this...

Horn Massive is a 2.25-ton (4,500 lbs) 3.5 x 3.1 x 4 m mobile 2,000-watt steel and aluminum horn sound system powered by a commercial 12-inch speaker driver. It functions as a mobile audio input station to project audio content a distance of one kilometer. Horn Massive is a monophonic sound projector designed and built by artist Matt Hope.

 

RE: oversized ,,,, overbuilt ,,,,, overpriced ....... the new way of audiophiles ..., posted on July 15, 2024 at 19:32:56
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37420
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 Those huge McIntosh amplifiers in Jay's Audio Lab look like miniature Peterbilt trucks........

 

I'm not sure I follow , posted on July 15, 2024 at 19:56:38
Wojciech
Audiophile

Posts: 4576
Joined: June 23, 2009
 Isn't it what America is all about and always was?
It's slightly more unnerving now for descendants of European slums because somehow now they are missing the train and will never catch it again eating their hearts out.The elite is raking and gobling everything. It's just the beginning.

 

RE: Well, SOMEBODY's buying that stuff!, posted on July 15, 2024 at 20:37:48
Goober58
Audiophile

Posts: 5892
Joined: November 15, 2016
 Yes some people have so much money they might be correct claiming that we normal folks are fools for spending so much of our hard earned money on audio equipment. As they do a half million dollar upgrade on their system.

 

RE: oversized ,,,, overbuilt ,,,,, overpriced ....... the new way of audiophiles ..., posted on July 15, 2024 at 20:43:05
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4435
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 I'm retired. I can't afford much new gear. But as long as there are good products I can afford who cares if there is mega gear I can't afford. It's still fun to read about it, how its designed and built and how the reviewer thinks it sounds(especially if I trust the reviewer). I drive a VW GLI. I wish I could have a Porsche GT3 Touring but I'm still glad it exists.

 

"500 pound amps", posted on July 16, 2024 at 00:54:12
Chris from Lafayette
Audiophile

Posts: 27471
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: February 17, 2004
Contributor
  Since: February 6, 2012
 I don't have any 500 pound amps, but one of my amps (the Mark Levinson) is heavy enough so that I don't have a prayer of lifting it. OTOH, that kind of helps protect it from getting stolen. But if I ever replace it, I think I'm going to go with something which is more. . . mobile (even if it's easier to steal!). ;-)

 

Math ..., posted on July 16, 2024 at 05:06:07
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13326
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 Why make $1,000 components and sell 500 of them, when you can make $100,000 components and have the same net by selling just five.

If you build it, they will come.

Dean.




reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

Less is more, posted on July 16, 2024 at 05:45:45
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 389
Joined: July 2, 2024
 No more house AC, no more speakers, no more speaker cables, no more humongous power supplies, no more big honking capacitors, no more fuses, no more transformers, no more DACs, no more room treatments. No more pencils, no more books, no more teacher's dirty looks.

 

Why all the fuss?, posted on July 16, 2024 at 06:20:51
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 39092
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 B!tch instead about celebrities contributing 50x the amount of CO2 than commercial flight with their $40M private jets.

Taylor has a fleet!

 

It's not insanity. It's capitalism., posted on July 16, 2024 at 06:21:38
George S. Roland
Audiophile

Posts: 1509
Location: N W Pennsylvania
Joined: March 20, 2004
 If people will spend great amounts of money for something, somebody will make something for them to buy. It's that simple.
Personally, I like retro stuff and new stuff. I have Quad ESLs and 63s, some Schiit electronics and a Thorens TD-124 turntable with an SME 3012 Mk II tonearm (put together before the prices got really high for such gear.)
I'm enjoying the sound. Love that music.

 

It's predecessor didn't sound that great either, posted on July 16, 2024 at 06:22:49
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 39092
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 but similarly offered 2kW of power!

 

RE: I'm not sure I follow , posted on July 16, 2024 at 06:52:52
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2494
Joined: September 27, 2004
 50 years ago American cars were vast with their V8 5+ litre engines, but untypically, Americans saw sense and now run around in European-sized cars!

Will they ever realise that, as component parts become smaller, they don't need a pile of heavy boxes for good music. In fact integrateds have become more popular but there are still many systems with piles of single-use boxes all connected by a snake-pit of crazy expensive cables that contribute nothing to the sound - they just do their best to avoid losing sound quality.

My own system has lost lots of weight in recent years, partly since moving from SET monos to Class D amps. However my speakers have put on some pounds. The current ones are about 100 Kg, but my electronics are mostly in a single box now.

 

Relax, get a job! nt, posted on July 16, 2024 at 07:07:17
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10687
Joined: April 12, 2002
 .

 

Just the right size, build, price., posted on July 16, 2024 at 07:27:02
grantv
Manufacturer

Posts: 7882
Location: B.C.
Joined: January 15, 2002
 Just the right size and price for someone it seems, as they are building, and people are buying.
If people want to spend money, give them something to spend their money on. There are vehicles over $10M, houses of crazy prices and sizes, trucks so large you need a ladder system to get into... none for me, but especially inside one's home where it doesn't bother anyone, let'm be.

 

Americans run around in Euro sized cars ? Where? , posted on July 16, 2024 at 07:32:07
Wojciech
Audiophile

Posts: 4576
Joined: June 23, 2009
 In my neck of woods ALL I see are trucks and SuV's. There was a moment of sobriety when the gas prices shoot up during financial crisis but it's long buried and forgotten.
Myself, I want a truck because it's been almost 20 years since I owned an old Chevy and I miss it dearly. There is nothing like driving an old rusty truck on a dirt road:)
My speakers became smaller. I realized I simply don't enjoy life sized presentation as much as I thought I would and simply prefer small scale with clearly defined "mechanical or reproductive " nature of sound. It really helps to focus on music.

 

RE: It's predecessor didn't sound that great either, posted on July 16, 2024 at 08:33:37
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37420
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 I always thought McIntosh was sort of the "Rolex" of audio equipment..... I also though it had a "house sound"..... But with a hybrid multi-section amplifier, who knows what one would get..... People into bi and tri amping must know what they're doing, or such an expensive investment could turn into a setup nightmare. (The sound signature of such a product could turn out "strange" with the wrong tubes or the wrong speakers.)

 

What kind of speaker needs 2 kW? , posted on July 16, 2024 at 09:23:31
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 39092
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 None that I would want.

 

Sadly, your point is valid, posted on July 16, 2024 at 11:06:01
Edp
Audiophile

Posts: 4636
Joined: September 23, 1999
 Yes the industry has moved on to chasing Oligarchs, cause you can't make much of a living selling moderately priced toasters (Spica TC50, Snell K, Joseph audio 25xl type units) to the masses that are no longer masses.

One Oligarchs sale can keep doors open, 300 sales of toasters and chapter 11

 

RE: What kind of speaker needs 2 kW? , posted on July 16, 2024 at 11:46:56
tomservo
Manufacturer

Posts: 8741
Joined: July 4, 2002
 Depends, for a sine wave no, but music has a crest factor, usually at least 10dB for compressed FM radio and more like 20dB or more with real recordings.

That means that if you use a sound level meter or rms Volt meter, your only seeing the average not the peaks.

A crest factor of 20dB means the instantaneous peaks are 100 times larger than the average and 30dB means 1000 times.

Thankfully you can't hear instantaneous clipping as clipping but if you compare to clipped and not clipped, the not clipped sounds more dynamic.

An oscilloscope on the amplifier output terminals is the only sure way to know one way or the other.


 

Realistically speaking, posted on July 16, 2024 at 11:48:51
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 39092
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 zero for which I have any interest.

I treasure my hearing and don't need 100 db output.

 

RE: Realistically speaking, posted on July 16, 2024 at 12:18:56
mark.korda@myfairpoint.net
Audiophile

Posts: 1319
Location: Maine
Joined: August 16, 2011
 Hi, the fun part of the hobby is to make the best system with the least amount of money.That's why Dynaco and Heathkit came about.

 

I was checking to see if you guys were still breathing ......, posted on July 16, 2024 at 12:21:37
trioderob
 I was just putting a mirror under your noses and looking for steam .

But all kidding aside it is insanity the costs ..... particularly for me who have gone to many audio shows and my favorite system I ever heard was a pair of German Phyiks omnidirectional Walsh F type ,,,and on reverse speakers like Magico and Wilson have me scratching my head and thinking " what's the hype about "

 

One with low/moderate sensitivity and impedance dips below 2 Ohms, posted on July 16, 2024 at 13:09:44
Brian H P
Audiophile

Posts: 1433
Location: Oregon
Joined: December 18, 2012
 And there are a bunch of those out there, especially ultra high end designs from Wilson and the likes. What counts is not Watts per se, but current reserves. The power supply shouldn't crap out when trying to sink enough current to drive orchestral crescendi at high SPLs.

 

That part I get, posted on July 16, 2024 at 13:20:02
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 39092
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 What counts is not Watts per se, but current reserves.

My 300 watt VTL mono amps have 250 joule power supplies each. Even my preamp has 38 which is more than many 100 watt amplifiers.

By comparison, a 600 watt McIntosh MC602 has but 162.

 

For me..., posted on July 16, 2024 at 13:26:29
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 39092
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 it is hearing deeper into my music which enhances the emotional connection.

As a teen, building and modifying Dynakits was fun - but to achieve the same goal. Frank Van Alstine was a great resource.

 

Just wondering why we have all these whiny posts -nt, posted on July 16, 2024 at 14:32:51
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 39092
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002

 

RE: What kind of speaker needs 2 kW? , posted on July 16, 2024 at 14:49:04
Inmate51
Industry Professional

Posts: 2827
Location: Dallas, TX
Joined: August 12, 2022
 I have no idea of the model or vintage of this particular amp, but I think that, way back in the day, the Grateful Dead used a bunch of high output McIntosh amps. I'll find out. In any case, a 2 KW amp might not necessarily have been intended for home use, except maybe as a "statement" product - you know, like MLB and Wilson Alexandria speakers. As with any industry where ultra-expensive products can be sold to someone, there are hi-fi products in that arena.

*********

We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.

 

Very different animal, posted on July 16, 2024 at 14:58:05
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 39092
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 It was the 300 watt/channel MC2300 which had a wimpy 125 joule power supply.

Dave Wilson never used mediocre amps in his own system. What you found were Ayre and VTL power amps.


 

RE: European cars, posted on July 16, 2024 at 16:10:46
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 39092
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 Wifey and I just returned from a two week trip to the UK. We rented a Fiat 500 and drove about 1000 miles across a wide range of roads.

How did I like that tiny car? It barely fit our luggage and us. Our shared bag filled the trunk. Our carry ons and backpacks filled the back seat. Having no power is a real bummer. While it weighed but 2300 lbs, 70 HP doesn't get you there very quickly. My motorcycle has substantially more horsepower as do our other vehicles. Which required a different manner of driving. For narrow lanes in Cornwall and Somerset where pucker factor is constantly high as you maneuver between hedges and oncoming traffic in a one and a half car width lane, however, it worked pretty well. I only took a chunk out of the left front tire once choosing to nerf the curb instead of the lorry beside me. I finally adjusted to periodically dragging the mirror through the hedges.


I would never buy one myself.


While I disable auto-stop from our Passport every time, that feature was quite useful in downtown London where they're not fooling when they say the "Conjested Zone" or elsewhere out in the countryside when traffic likewise just stops and gas is $7.60/gallon.

 

RE: Less is more, posted on July 16, 2024 at 16:41:41
The Dill
Audiophile

Posts: 2240
Location: Portland, Oregon
Joined: July 1, 2004
Contributor
  Since: February 3, 2016
 Welcome back Geoff, you have been gone for awhile huh ...

 

RE: oversized ,,,, overbuilt ,,,,, overpriced ....... the new way of audiophiles ..., posted on July 16, 2024 at 18:38:25
highendfan
Audiophile

Posts: 217
Location: Ontario
Joined: March 6, 2009
 Gen3 Class D is the way for the cognoscenti. Newton had laws, every else is merely a recommendation

 

RE: oversized ,,,, overbuilt ,,,,, overpriced ....... the new way of audiophiles ..., posted on July 16, 2024 at 18:46:16
highendfan
Audiophile

Posts: 217
Location: Ontario
Joined: March 6, 2009
 Spot on. Good, engaging music can be obtained without extensive experience.

That said, query your musical aficionado friends for some evidence.

No Room?
No problem Go headphones
An 8-watt SET will more than bring the magic

 

RE: oversized ,,,, overbuilt ,,,,, overpriced ....... the new way of audiophiles ..., posted on July 16, 2024 at 18:47:34
highendfan
Audiophile

Posts: 217
Location: Ontario
Joined: March 6, 2009
 Indeed. Totally agree

 

RE: "500 pound amps", posted on July 16, 2024 at 18:52:29
highendfan
Audiophile

Posts: 217
Location: Ontario
Joined: March 6, 2009
 My dear Audio friend just obtained a John Curul amp (my hero) and a Rowland model 5

Rowland weighs in at 165 lbs Ouch.

KIller PSU which is the key,
IMO

 

RE: "500 pound amps", posted on July 16, 2024 at 18:57:58
highendfan
Audiophile

Posts: 217
Location: Ontario
Joined: March 6, 2009
 Running Crown Direct Drive amps. On board crossovers. My main rig rolls of at 35 Hz, the 45 inch ribbons go beyond dog hearing . I cut the twin subs at 100 Hz. Tri-amp configuration

 

Absolutely correct., posted on July 16, 2024 at 19:20:37
sleeper
Audiophile

Posts: 1199
Joined: May 21, 2002
 There is no shortage of people wondering how they can get their hands on some of Jeff Bezos' money. And some of them work in the audio industry.

 

"Tri-amp configuration" - And I've never even bi-amped! [nt] ;-), posted on July 17, 2024 at 00:03:49
Chris from Lafayette
Audiophile

Posts: 27471
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: February 17, 2004
Contributor
  Since: February 6, 2012

 

RE: "500 pound amps", posted on July 17, 2024 at 04:17:46
Inmate51
Industry Professional

Posts: 2827
Location: Dallas, TX
Joined: August 12, 2022
 "My dear Audio friend just obtained a John Curul [Curl] amp (my hero)"

Which amp?

I'll tell John that he's your hero - he'll be happy to hear that.

*********

We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.

 

RE: oversized ,,,, overbuilt ,,,,, overpriced ....... the new way of audiophiles ..., posted on July 17, 2024 at 07:24:13
Audiogabby
Audiophile

Posts: 386
Joined: June 5, 2000
 There is a lot of money out there. We are living in the best of times the way i see it. I'm in central Florida and you can see it in the houses, the cars on the street, the lines at expensive restaurants, etc. I understand that appearances does not necesarily mean wealth but it is undeniable that people have more money to spend these days. Boomers are spending their retirement money and investors are cashing in on their Nvidias and other stocks. Again, this may not be apparent to a lot of people but it is happening right now.

 

RE: oversized ,,,, overbuilt ,,,,, overpriced ....... the new way of audiophiles ..., posted on July 18, 2024 at 15:43:26
Billy Wonka
Audiophile

Posts: 3857
Joined: April 25, 2013
Contributor
  Since: October 15, 2013
 That's my new girlfriend your talking about!

 

In addition to what you brought uo, posted on July 19, 2024 at 10:39:35
Ozzie
Audiophile

Posts: 3894
Joined: August 1, 2002
 A speaker designer doen here also records people. He said he has seen pianos put out as much as 130 Dbs short term.

 

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