Critic's Corner

Discuss a review. Provide constructive feedback. Talk to the industry.

Return to Critic's Corner

Message Sort: Post Order or Asylum Reverse Threaded

Speakers with Subwoofers in the Ultra High-End?

174.115.81.157
Posted on June 24, 2024 at 13:21:32
Doug Schneider
Reviewer

Posts: 920
Location: North America
Joined: April 16, 2005
 We just posted this video (see link) about the Sonus faber Suprema system.

First off, I want to say that there is NOTHING NEW about speakers and subwoofers. Their origins go back more than 50 years. But the idea for the integration of the two has always been solid -- but like many things, audiophiles have resisted. But why?

The thing I really like about this system is that you can't resist it -- it's either one or two subwoofers, period.

Is this going to mark a solid future for the concept -- finally?

Doug Schneider
SoundStage!

 

Hide full thread outline!
    ...
RE: Speakers with Subwoofers in the Ultra High-End?, posted on June 24, 2024 at 20:49:16
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4435
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 A speaker system must be an integrated system. And if it employs a sub woofer, that sub woofer is part of that system. You need to use a bespoke crossover between all portions of a speaker system in order to get optimum integration and therefore optimum reproduction.

A generic crossover doesn't work between a mid and a tweeter and it doesn't work optimally between a woofer and a sub woofer. This is readily evident with so many sub crossover having no high pass filters, only low pass. This means for good(still not optimal) integration you need to roll in the sub where the woofer begins to roll off. This may not be optimal. And even more severe no high pass means the woofer is still being fully stressed and with a high pass the stress, significantly reduced which improves dynamics and detail and openness, etc.

A system with a subwoofer should not be thought of as a speaker with added sub but as a single system where the sub happens to be physically separated from the rest of the speaker. It demands a crossover designed just for that system, designed as individually as every other crossover in the speaker. And this is true whether the crossover is active as essentially all subs or passive. I happen to have 18" sub passively crossed with both high pass and low pass designed just for my speaker and when I added the sub all the advantages I mentioned above due to a high pass filter were immediately and severely evident.

So I'm all for the concept in the Sonus Faber Suprema system. I know how hard it would be to do really proper crossovers when adding a sub to a speaker system. But perhaps with today's technology it can be done(for a price, of course). Now that digital can be so good how about a digital active crossover system with the ability to read the system like room correction does and that can then create a real time crossover, both high and low pass, that has a few good target functions in the software?

 

Some attempts haven't been successful IMHO, posted on June 25, 2024 at 06:10:21
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 39092
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 HP loved his Infinity IRS towers but to these ears, the woofers sounded as though they belonged to a different speaker. Great first octave bass but the towers always seemed to call themselves out. Later Genesis models weren't far behind.

Nola and Scaena did a better job to these ears. What seems to make better sense, however, is to apply Duke LeJeune's SWARM concept or at least position the subs at different ends of the room to minimize modes as I do with the HT system.

 

RE: Speakers with Subwoofers in the Ultra High-End?, posted on June 25, 2024 at 07:04:00
tomservo
Manufacturer

Posts: 8741
Joined: July 4, 2002
 It is kind of weird but in home hifi it appears that the reason they were separate is that they made the otherwise full range speaker too large for what marketing wanted (where the sugar cube size was the goal).

This was partly driven by science too as the efficiency even with the "perfect drive" goes down at about -9dB/oct when one lowers the corner F an octave but leaving the cabinet the same volume. Low bass, especially clean is hard.

One problem with a separate sub is that the low pass filter itself is a significant time delay and phase shift so it's hard to make a seamless transition especially so if the sub and upper are not together acoustically. Another is because of our hearing curve, we are very sensitive to bass distortion, for example at 20Hz, the threshold of hearing is around 70dB BUT a 7% 3rd harmonic of 20Hz at 60Hz is just as loud (to our ears) as the 20Hz signal.

Tom Danley

 

Yes- but you really need 4 subs, posted on June 25, 2024 at 11:26:46
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4863
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 That way you can break up standing waves in the room.

 

RE: Yes- but you really need 4 subs, posted on June 25, 2024 at 13:44:18
Doug Schneider
Reviewer

Posts: 920
Location: North America
Joined: April 16, 2005
 Ideally, yes. But with some careful two-sub placement, you can do a good job. What's for sure is it's better to have more than one.

Doug

 

RE: Some attempts haven't been successful IMHO, posted on June 25, 2024 at 13:45:21
Doug Schneider
Reviewer

Posts: 920
Location: North America
Joined: April 16, 2005
 I can say that I heard the Suprema system in two places -- at Sonus faber and at the House of Sound store in NYC -- and the blend was seamless.

Doug

 

I use only 3 subs but.............................., posted on June 25, 2024 at 13:59:43
Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

Posts: 12539
Location: New York
Joined: June 5, 2002
 my room has only 3 corners. :-)

 

One would certainly hope , posted on June 25, 2024 at 14:10:48
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 39092
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 that for $750k such could be achieved.

I suspect my passion for coherency and lack of needing to blend any drivers would lead me to choosing a double pair of Dr. West's U-945s extending coverage to 90 degrees for a mere pittance of only $175k or so!

And they would not be fed by Mac amps. :)



 

RE: Some attempts haven't been successful IMHO, posted on June 25, 2024 at 14:28:05
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4435
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 I'd add that I know the designers of the Pipe Dreams and Scaena speakers and they have 2 subs and they work probably because of the adaptability to positioning designed into the crossovers.

 

And..., posted on June 25, 2024 at 14:29:06
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 39092
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 placed asymmetrically.

 

Seems like an advert for sonus Faber and described as novel to drive traffic to your site?, posted on June 25, 2024 at 14:31:55
13th Duke of Wymbourne
Audiophile

Posts: 2946
Location: Orange Co., Ca
Joined: September 19, 2001
 Separate woofer towers are not new. The video is nicely made - did Sonus Faber sponsor it?

 

RE: Seems like an advert for sonus Faber and described as novel to drive traffic to your site?, posted on June 25, 2024 at 17:27:57
Doug Schneider
Reviewer

Posts: 920
Location: North America
Joined: April 16, 2005
 Hello,

Thanks for the compliment on the quality.

No, Sonus faber didn't sponsor it. We travel the world producing the InSight series, as well as many other types of videos -- along with doing our reviews.

Doug Schneider
SoundStage!

 

Yup! nt, posted on June 26, 2024 at 10:37:55
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4863
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 =

 

RE: One would certainly hope , posted on June 29, 2024 at 07:10:31
regmac
Audiophile

Posts: 7500
Joined: April 7, 2002
 That photo is priceless. Perhaps the best example of unwitting self-parody I've seen.

 

Mine are, posted on June 29, 2024 at 14:12:11
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 39092
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 two feet shorter. ;)

 

RE: Mine are, posted on June 30, 2024 at 04:52:55
regmac
Audiophile

Posts: 7500
Joined: April 7, 2002
 Oops.

It's time to channel Rodney: Looks good on you though!

 

I have no idea , posted on July 2, 2024 at 00:15:53
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 39092
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 what you're trying to say with your posts.

I greatly prefer the sound of full range dipolar line sources to boxes. The modular SL approach with controlled directivity is scalable to fit your needs.

 

RE: I have no idea , posted on July 2, 2024 at 07:00:13
regmac
Audiophile

Posts: 7500
Joined: April 7, 2002
 The diminutive fellow dwarfed by those enormous speakers struck me as funny. One of those incongruities that Gary Larson would have had great fun with. There's no accounting for taste. Have a good day.

 

Thanks, posted on July 2, 2024 at 07:22:28
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 39092
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 Most anyone would be dwarfed by the nine foot tall model!

That's Dr West of Sound Lab.

 

Page processed in 0.034 seconds.

[ Top Top of Page ] [ Contact Us ] [ Support/Wish List ] [ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
[ General ] [ Speakers ] [ Tubes ] [ Vinyl ] [ Digital ] [ Hi-Rez ] [ Video Asylum ] [ Cables ] [ Tweaks/DIY ] [ Music ] [ Films ]