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In Reply to: RE: Just how sensitve is our hearing? posted by PaulF70 on March 07, 2025 at 09:31:13
I dunno.... in my setup I preferred 12 dB Gain mode over 0 dB Buffered Unity Gain or 0dB Passive. That was with two Schiit preamps that I have owned including the Freya + tube preamp and the Kara solid-state preamp.I thought the Freya+ was excellent but not up there with some better tube preamps. I was hoping that the bargain priced Freya+ with 6SN7 tubes would sound similar to my old Cary SLP-05 with 6SN7 tubes but that wasn't to be. The Cary was far more robust with deep rich lower mids and excellent bass grunt. The Cary was noticeably more dynamic too. The Freya+ was 'light' in comparison..... not bad but not what I was hoping for.
Still, I preferred the Freya+ in 12dB Gain active mode over Passive. Maybe I can't hear 0.0002% THD & 0.0002% IMD
I'm driving the NAD C298 Purifi Class D amp and Tannoy Definition D500 speakers.
"Oh, by the way, Schiit's tubed version of this preamp is *Stereophile Class A,* among a sea of $30,000 wonders - and the non-tube version sounds better IMO. For $800."
But I would take my pricey old Cary SLP-05 over the Freya+ any day - but I would take the Freya+ over the ARC preamps I had. I agree 100% on the Schiit Kara. It sounds better to me than the Freya+ when comparing each in 12 dB Active vs 12 dB Active mode. I sold the Freya+ a couple years ago but I still have the Kara even though it is not in my system right now.
I guess we all hear differently.
Edits: 03/07/25
Hey Abe, I don't know if you've ever mentioned it, but why did you get rid of that Cary piece? If I'm ever in the market for a new pre, and I just might be, as I'm thinking about putting together a mono block system (at least in my post op drug addled state of mind I am) it would be one of the few I would consider. I love the 6sn7 sound. I have a Supratek Syrah with them that is currently gathering dust (no remote) since I bought my LTA integrated. LTA makes a 6sn7 (or 12sn7, never heard that tube before) piece that I would also consider. I'm a sucker for system matching, in the appearance sense as well as the functional sense.
Oh, and if you reply to this post, BE NICE! I hear you're not being nice. I might have to send a note home to your mother.
The main reason I no longer have the Cary SLP-05 and the pair of Manley Neo-Classic 250 monoblocks is because of physical size, weight, and heat. I setup a new rack at our previous home and the Cary was rather tall and wouldn't fit quite right. Similar constraints with the large Manleys.And that was BEFORE we moved to our new place and my audio system was relegated to the home office. Since finishing the basement in our new place a couple years ago I would have more than sufficient space again but I continue to enjoy a somewhat minimalist compact system.
I liked the 6SN7 sound in the Cary but it was quite different in the Schiit Freya+. But I think Cary is known for their more 'tubey' sound in general.
I'm trying to be nice by not participating much in Inmate Central. My posts are often deleted in that right-leaning echo chamber anyway ;-)
Hope you start feeling much better.
Edits: 03/07/25
Similar story here with my Supratek. Love the sound, but the two boxes took up so much room, and when I lost my space I had no place to put them. I made the mistake of putting them in my rack, too much heat swelled the wood and I ended up with a broken attenuator. Luckily I found an absolute master amp wizard (Scott Frankland of Moore, Frankland & Associates) who repaired it. I think when my space returns I'll bring it back out with my SME 20 TT. One of the best things about it was its phono stage. Lack of a remote won't matter if I have the two new knees, and have to get up to flip sides anyway.
Thanks for the good wishes. Things are improving. The downside of that is they then make you work so much harder! I'm actually spending more time at central killing time under the ice. I try and stay away from the politics though. What's the situation in Colorado these days? Daughter was accepted at Boulder. Has to be better (though not cheaper) than Alabama (another school she's been admitted to).
I almost posted a reply to our favorite person who "loves music" defending your honor, after I stopped laughing, but just couldn't be nice, so I gave up. All the trolls sound alike these days.
Nt
Sounds like your tube preamp prefs might be subjective: Which was the more *accurate*? :)
(S-file did deign to give the Freya the A rating, FWIW.)
Same thing WRT the gain setting. Also, preference wasn't the point of the post, but, rather, the ability to distinguish between the (unmeasurable distortion) passive and (incredibly small distortion) active.
I could see someone preferring the active mode.
I wasn't looking for *accurate* - whatever that is. What metrics would be used? Frequency response flatness and distortion?"....preference wasn't the point of the post, but, rather, the ability to distinguish between the (unmeasurable distortion) passive and (incredibly small distortion) active."
No, I didn't hear a difference in distortion but I wasn't trying to. I suppose I could try again but that's not how I normally listen.
I admit that I listen based on preference and to that end the difference in dynamics in Active mode vs Passive stood out to me w/o *trying* to hear it, if that makes sense. Active mode seems more 'alive' to me and that caught my attention and suited my preference.
On a related note that wasn't detailed, did you compare the Freya+ vs Kara in Passive vs Passive mode? Any difference?Or did you compare them in 12 dB Active Gain mode vs 12 dB Active Gain mode between the two preamps? In 12 dB Active Gain mode I prefer the Kara over the Freya+
When I had the Kara in my system
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Edits: 03/07/25
Well, we can certainly define "accuracy" in audio components: The least damage to the signal.
Tube preamps all produce substantial distortion, relatively small but not after subsequent amplification down the line, and transformer coupling (I don't recall if the Cary is TX-coupled) causes very substantial bandwidth-limitation and resultant phase-shift.
(The very audible effect of TX output stage of the DirectStream DAC I used to run was one of the reasons I got rid of it.)
"On a related note that wasn't detailed, did you compare the Freya+ vs Kara in Passive vs Passive mode? Any difference?"
I never compared the two side-by-side, but in passive mode the two should be identical. No gain stage in the circuit. I guess the only differences might be due to inference from the different power supplies - likely of tiny/no factor since I think Schiit knows what they're doing in that regard...
In your earlier post you mentioned how good the Freya+ is but your preference is for the Kara. How so? How did the Kara sound to you compared to the Freya+? I assume you were talking about Active vs Active modes between the two.You might enjoy Amir and the Audio Science Review website. They're all about signal measurements there.
Edits: 03/07/25
Sorry to be unclear about that but I never owned the Freya. I did hear one once and was going by that and user reports in general.
The Freya is a very good tubed linestage, as with everything Schiit does. And its measurements are very good indeed. But, I become very familiar with what tubed linestages do, over 20 year or so, and don't really desire that sound signature anymore.
You misunderstood me as believing that measurements are everything. They are something - not everything. My ears and the experience I have are the "everything."
I'm not a fan of Audio Science Review because I find the fellow who runs it (who uses a woman as his avatar) to be rather annoying, and extremely naive in some ways.
During the period in which I actively and routinely evaluated gear, I owned, in total, something like $500K worth. I've had dozens of tubed preamps, including boutique pieces from the likes of Shindo, as well as at least 30 horribly-measuring SET amps. My humble opinion now: It's all tone controls.
Ten years ago, no one knew how to measure gear at all. The worse-sounding solid-state amps "measured well" because nobody was measuring high-order THD on peaks and crossover distortion. We're past that now, mostly.
The Purifi switching amp modules are, essentially, perfect. They measure it, *and sound it.*
So, my bliss now is a top-rate digital front end, a humble passive linestage, a good Purifi amp, and electrostatic speakers.
Still, audio will always be a subjective experience. And the best-sounding room at every show (IMHO), High Water sound, is all vinyl & SETs.
Cool stuff!
I did own one Curl phonostage. Definitely he knew what he was doing.
"Ten years ago, no one knew how to measure gear at all. The worse-sounding solid-state amps "measured well" because nobody was measuring high-order THD on peaks and crossover distortion. "That's not "entirely" true. While there probably are many designers who "know about it" and can probably measure it and design around it, many don't, simply because it's more expensive and requires a higher level of design talent. But the knowledge and measurement methods have been out there for several decades.
Here are a couple of places where you can start to explore the history:
https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=amp&m=208080
https://proaudiodesignforum.com/images/pdf/Leinonen_Otala_Curl_TIM_Measurement.pdf
John is adamant (rightly so) about high-order harmonic distortion, and has shown me some measurements on his test equipment. As a musician, I surmise that at least part of the audible issue is caused by the difference between natural harmonics and the musical scale of "equal temperament". He and I have not talked about this aspect in any depth, but we should, even if just to separate a little more chaff from the wheat, so to speak.
*********
We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.
Edits: 03/11/25 03/11/25
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