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In Reply to: RE: grounding and isolation posted by Dawnrazor on April 25, 2025 at 11:55:33
The picture you tried to post didn't load but my take on it is this:If you don't have an audible problem I wouldn't mess with it.
In the scenario I presented the Inmate was having HUM issues with his streamer in the system. Switched to cheap CAT5 patch cable to the streamer with no metal RJ45 connectors. Ground loop broken. No HUM. Problem solved.
Edits: 04/25/25
Thanks for letting me know about the pict.
I certainly have a different take. Always trying to improve. Always.
And while I def get the "if it aint broke don't fix it" mentality I don't apply it to audio. If I can improve things I will try. And often we have problems we aren't aware if. Like CDs. Before ripping and computers and then streaming, no one knew how much cds really sucked.
Its like $130 to add the fiber in my case and even less if you don't have PoE. It seems to have cleaned up some things.
When you see the pict you will see my audiophile cables and maybe if you look close the isolation. Even the networking components get basic isolation.
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than overt hum.
I use unshielded CAT6 cable for the long run upstairs to avoid that potential problem.
"There is more to transmitted noise than overt hum. "Of course, but I was describing the overt HUM issue CAUSED BY designer audiophile cables.
Relative to audio all data transmission might be described as transmitted noise. Extracting the data is what counts while the rest is ignored.
Edits: 04/25/25
this is one case where shielded cable may be detrimental.
Sounds like the baby and the bath water, like you are saying ALL audiophile ethernet cables cause hum. And if noise gets to the dac it certainly seems audible. Sure it wont mess up your printer but if your system is resolving you might hear it depending on your hearing.
But sure its diminishing returns at some point.
That said, you can buy 100 cork testube stoppers for $8. Thats enough footers for a whole system. Start there and see.
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"...you are saying ALL audiophile ethernet cables cause hum."
Not at all but any Ethernet cable with its shield terminated at each end to metal RJ45 connectors CAN cause ground loop hum in some systems. That was proven right here in the Asylum. As it turns out many such audiophile cables CAN cause ground loop hum too.
" And if noise gets to the dac it certainly seems audible."
Seems is the operative word. A controlled test might include an Audio Precision analyzer at the output of the DAC with:
#1) a length of cheap CAT5e cable going to the streamer
#2) same length high-end shielded *CAT7 or CAT8 cable to the streamer
Measure 'noise' at the output of the DAC with Audio Precision analyzer and compare the two cables. Has anyone done such a test? I'd like to see it out of curiosity. And even IF the high-end cable measures better it won't matter because the SNR is already well below what's required to perfectly extract the data.
*CAT7 was never an officially recognized standard and in fact CA6A is the better cable.
Look at all the bogus technical marketing speak. None of it even matters for the intended application:
Isn't it almost impossible to have grounding issues if you have a fiber network? I mean sure jist being in the same house is often enough regardless
I might be able to test. I have 2 computers one gen purpose and one audio only. Its currently disconnected but when it was, one day I heard my general pc's mouse noise. Took a while to trace but I eventually realized that the audio pc was not EXACTLY headless. I had reconnected the hdmi cable to the audio pc and never disconnected. They were tied together at the TV (monitor). Disconnected and mouse noise gone. Can see if its diff with fiber. Though the devices share the same outlet so the ethernet connection may have nothing to do with it.
Yea. ANOTHER audio thing to figure out. Can't get DSD to work with my Tascam DA-3000 through Spdif-3 bnc connections. My Antelope Zeo stopped working with IOS 18.4.1 and the Neutron player seems to only output 32bit which means half my gear wont work. :(.
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I know what I don't know. :)
That seems to be the concept and why Sonore created their fiber based version of my endpoint. Stray currents and noise do travel along conventional Ethernet which is why I use the Tripp Lite filter.
" Stray currents and noise do travel along conventional Ethernet"
That's why the Ethernet standard requires transformers at each end for isolation. Transformers are very good at generating and receiving differential signals while providing high common mode noise rejection. This makes them an excellent combination with twisted-pair wiring.
Just a thought.... If optical network coupling provided noticeably better audio quality from a streamer you would think that more manufacturers would incorporate optical. IMHO, it's mostly marketing and a way for some companies to differentiate their product.
Just my 2-cents worth as I can't argue with what other people hear or think they hear.
There are market factors. Fiber is more expensive and though it is cheaper than it used to be, its not exactly plug and play like copper. As i understand it not all modules really work together though they should. For example I was strongly advised to buy the modules from my switch manufacturer and not another cheaper brand.
You need a special switch and cables and need to be careful with the runs and bending. Much easier to sell plug and play use existing equipment, etc. its kind of like I2s in that some manufacturers offer it but most don't.
And if your premise about copper ethernet is true (that transformer and utp wiring handles noise, why do they make ethernet isolators for hospitals? What am I missing?
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Optical GBICs and SFP's along with optical cables are designed to run at certain wavelengths so it does matter which compatible components you choose for your data center application. Optical cables are usually color coded. Think of an optical cable as a waveguide for light much like metal waveguides are used for microwave RF propagation.
Most everything you said is true in a data center BUT- optical Ethernet to a network streamer for audio applications offers no practical benefit - IMHO.
I looked at the isolator link you posted. Its the exact one I am using between the walljack and my switch. Do they add? I have a 2nd one somewhere and could put between the computer and the switch, though the fiber should make that unnecessary I would think.
Cut to razor sounding violins
Its the exact one I am using between the walljack and my switch. Do they add? I have a 2nd one somewhere and could put between the computer and the switch
Potentially yes because you've introduced a new source of noise in the second case.
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