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Speaker Asylum General speaker questions for audio and home theater. |
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Speaker Asylum General speaker questions for audio and home theater. |
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In Reply to: Re: I guess when your subs don't *woof*.... posted by stryke on September 3, 2000 at 13:48:58:
"You can get specs until the cows come home, but like anything else: it doesn't mean all that much."
You sound like a salesman that gets upset when a customer realizes you don't know what is going on.... You can also make claims that the subwoofer flapps your pants from a meter away
Try again, several meters away! It MUST perform and produce a lot of low bass with very significant energy to do that. ONE meter indeed! No claims, stop by a VMPS showroom, easy to prove., but that means much less. A fan will flap your pants from many feet away, does it make good sound? Don't think so. People want to know at what levels distortion will really set in. Once you go beyond the limits of linear Xmax, distortion skyrockets. What if you want to know what level of output you can achieve before this happens? Well you need parameters to simulate the enclosure, and simulate the output. You can then determine exactly at which levels at certain frequencies that you will exceed Xmax, which tells you your level before the distortion skyrockets.
--these subs get extremely loud, extremely clean...period.
"SPL: the VMPS pair I have will pump out well over 115db/20hz with no audible distortion components...single digit"
I have a Dayton 15" woofer in a bandpass box, about 22" cube. This will do well over 125dB at 20Hz in my room.
SO YOU claim. Any reputable sources corroborate this claim?So will my Lambda Got12 enclosure with a single 12" woofer and dual 15" PR's. Is it the woofer itself giving all that output? There is a lot of output coming from the room. Claims like 115dB/20Hz mean nothing. How much of that is room gain? How did you measure it? Take a 2meter GP measurement and let me know what that gives.
I also heard them in a 25x31 foot room, even LOUDER."Musicality: Any material played through them is conveyed in superb detail..."
Again this means nothing, very subjective. People have told me the same thing about their subwoofers and when listening to them I almost have to laugh. It's all subjective, and means nothing.
So in other words, if the opinion is not YOURS, it's not objective? No one on earth has listening ability or discerbability equal or better than yours? That is a bold, opinionated subjective analysis you made all by yourself. As are you're statements.
"If the xmax was 50mm and it sounded like a boombox, then who cares? If the sub could do 136db at 20hz is a wonderful spec to, but if it SOUNDED poor, who cares?"
Xmax itself does not determine how a woofer sounds. It does determine how much air you can move, and that determines the amount of output. Manufacturers can claim that their woofers are flat to 17Hz, and do X level of output, but unless they can give the numbers to back it up you have to question the credibility.
Try reading backissues of stereophile sometime, and the reviews on the VMPS site. BTW...again, what credible source reviewed you're diy and posted facts? The VMPS bass reaches well below 17 hz with tremendous, usable power."*some* elements you understand are like a secret recipie."
It's about making an educated decision before spending rather large amounts of money.
By listening to what the sub really does in the real world, not reading specs and claims."Specs can make the semi neurotic a fully neurotic audiophlake [remember slew rate??? and "digital ready?" ], and the armchair speaker company CEO a full on audio genius. But it's the MUSIC that matters and the END RESULT. Not a dissertation, or a claim."
EXACTLY, you just said it, it is the music that matters, not the claims. In which case, for someone planning to spend over $700 on a VMPS subwoofer, i think the customer has a right to request parameters of the woofer to model and verify what VMPS claims about their subwoofers. If someone says "this sub is very musical, plays low, and very loud, and sounds amazing" wouldn't you like to know a little more about it instead of just taking the word of a salesman? Would you buy a car without a test drive?
Really? how many companies give you every parameter and specification? Can I get a diagram of a wotan tube amp? what about a genesis 1.1 system?"BTW: I see Big B uses two banks of 12" subs [10 total] in his flagship system. It does things with bass many systems can't hope to approach. I suppose that doesn't matter when he does not include a free schematic and technical book for EACH and every parameter."
I myself have a system with a total of 16 10" woofers, 8 per enclosure, which I'm sure can easily approach if not top his flagship system. Each enclosure is 25cubic feet, F3 of around 20Hz.
The VMPS hit below 16Hz at levels near 120dB/1m SPL. His "claims" have been verifdied by many customers and reliable sources in the media and audio industry...have yours? If so where? by who?It is really amazing how much SPL you can get out of it, and how low the distortion is when spread over that many woofers.
Yeah, 10 12" woven carbon fiber subs can do that...
which BTW you have no proof TC drivers are superior.If you want you can have my whole 16 woofer system for the price of two VMPS "New Larger Subwoofers". I'll even give you all the parameters for the woofers to model this enclosure. Do my claims about the sound of this subwoofer necessarily mean anything? No, of course not, you should listen for yourself, but the next best thing to actually listening is simulation.
Oh so if I have a positive opinion of you're system my opinion is valid? and if not, I am not credible?Any company that gets on the defensive when asked for T/S parameters must be hiding something. Are they making false claims about their products and afraid people will find out? Time will tell.
I haven't seen any false performance from VMPS. Niether has TAS, and Sterophile. And over 15 years of customers. Again I ask, with what company are you alinged, and who can prove you're claims with empirical data? or is the proof in the LISTENING as I stated from the start?
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Follow Ups
- Re: I guess when your subs don't *woof*.... - WCF 16:01:08 09/03/00 (0)
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