High Efficiency Speaker Asylum

Need speakers that can rock with just one watt? You found da place.

Return to High Efficiency Speaker Asylum

Message Sort: Post Order or Asylum Reverse Threaded

Hornresp 1st pass - comments/critiques welcome. 40hz "L" horn

73.176.229.164
Posted on December 30, 2023 at 14:12:05
Oldbean2
Audiophile

Posts: 945
Location: Midwest US
Joined: March 27, 2022



Vs the Hornresp suggested model, it's a little longer but with a much smaller mouth, and smoother response. My main concerns are around Vtc, Atc, Vrc, Lrc, but I think they're ok.

My thoughts on the build:

Rectangular build, 1:1.273 aspect
JBL 2220h driver
CON (conical) both sides expand, straight sides
3 segments; first vertical, 2nd and 3rd folded @ 45 degrees. Kinda L shaped.
Should fit in a room w/ 9 foot ceiling; mouth 5-6 feet into room.
Mouth placement on floor against wall (lath + plaster). Mouth approx. 35x44.5 in
Room 14 feet wide, 24 feet long
Upper crossover 270hz, 4th order to Oris Orphean horns. Hypex amps /DSP likely.
Best part - my son in law and his brother are looking forward to building them, and my daughter wants horns.

If I have screwed up, if I'm silly and there's a more efficient approach, let me know. I haven't been at this for quite a while. Thanks!


Back for a bit again. Ignore me if you like.

 

Hide full thread outline!
    ...
RE: Hornresp 1st pass - comments/critiques welcome. 40hz "L" horn, posted on December 30, 2023 at 18:55:03
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5390
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 When using HornResp start with the Design Wizard > Hypex With Driver. That will give you the maximally flat alignment, and it will also be the largest possible box. Then you tweak the various parameters to reduce the box size, at the cost of low end sensitivity and response ripple. Experience tells you how much low end sensitivity you can afford to lose and how much ripple you can tolerate. For instance, depending on room size you can sacrifice even 10dB of low end response if it's going to be made up for via cabin gain. Ripple of even +/-4dB tends to be dwarfed by room boundary effects, and those are best controlled with multiple subs. Speaking of boundary effects, with the mouth 5-6 feet into the room you'll get an Allison Effect cancellation centered in the 50-60Hz region. The usual method to get around that is to use a folded horn that keeps the mouth no more than 2 feet from the wall.

 

Often wondered, and wanted to build (or more accuratly HAVE someone build)..., posted on December 31, 2023 at 07:10:56
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
Contributor
  Since: September 3, 2024
 Bruce Edgar's 'Show Horn', as published in 'Speaker Builder' more than 30 years ago.

I suspect my Edgar Titan (with an 80Hz? folded mid-bass horn) is of similar design, but I will never know as the prior owner covered it rather completely with a substantial layer of Cocobolo veneer covering all of the screws.

Bruce shared that he used a JBL k-120 in this designed (re-coned with a cloth dust cap).

If I ever went with one of Bert's large 200-300? Hz horns (with concentric compression driver) Bruce's 'Show Horn' might be my choice for mid-bass.

Always wonder how it would model with current technology?


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: I initially considered Bruce's Monolith, maybe the Show Horn is a better fit; TH below, regardless, posted on December 31, 2023 at 09:14:32
Oldbean2
Audiophile

Posts: 945
Location: Midwest US
Joined: March 27, 2022
 I kind of wanted to get all the way down to 40hz to keep the bass (guitar/ upright) in a single horn for consistency of tone and timing, but maybe it won't matter so much that low.

It's a 2nd story room, would have to build sand boxes for the down firing Monoliths. The Show Horn starts to look more appealing if I'm going to have a tapped horn below anyway. More flexible in placement, probably an easier build.

Yeah, there's always the K-horn, but not sure I want to be absolutely fixed in the corners.

Back for a bit again. Ignore me if you like.

 

RE: Allison? What's Elvis Costello got to do with it?, posted on December 31, 2023 at 09:20:23
Oldbean2
Audiophile

Posts: 945
Location: Midwest US
Joined: March 27, 2022
 Thank you very much. Kinda drives a stake through the heart of my initial approach, but that's great feedback. Much appreciated.

I'll do some more reading on folding.

Back for a bit again. Ignore me if you like.

 

RE: Hornresp 1st pass - comments/critiques welcome. 40hz "L" horn, posted on January 3, 2024 at 13:00:02
Rod M
Web Geek

Posts: 16521
Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999




I know you're looking at a bass horn, but it's difficult to get low bass without a long horn. My EdgarHorns drop like a rock at 80hz. Personally, I haven't liked folded horns as to me, they don't have the impact in the same way as a direct driver.

Another idea is doing a hybrid like the Altec VOTT A7 cabinet. It can get down as low as 40hz and easily around 50hz. It's also much smaller and can be more easily positioned in the room.


-Rod

 

RE: Hornresp 1st pass - comments/critiques welcome. 40hz "L" horn, posted on January 5, 2024 at 22:42:12
Oldbean2
Audiophile

Posts: 945
Location: Midwest US
Joined: March 27, 2022
 Thanks. I like A7s but I would like to avoid the hybrid approach if possible.

What's your lower crossover for the Edgar's? A steep crossover right at 80, or do you cross higher?

Back for a bit again. Ignore me if you like.

 

RE: Hornresp 1st pass - comments/critiques welcome. 40hz "L" horn, posted on January 6, 2024 at 06:46:41
Rod M
Web Geek

Posts: 16521
Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 Yes, the subs are set at 80hz and are connected directly from the preamp using a second output for the amps.

-Rod

 

RE: Thanks! Might be a comfortable compromise, posted on January 6, 2024 at 09:02:05
Oldbean2
Audiophile

Posts: 945
Location: Midwest US
Joined: March 27, 2022
 Volvotreter has plans for a 77hz straight horn using an EVM-15B, but it looks smaller than Bruce's 80hz horn. His Hornresp simulation shows it starting to drop off at 90hz, and he crosses it at 100hz in his system.

I might fool around in Hornresp and see if I can increase length and mouth size a little and get it a bit lower. I presume Bruce never published the plans for his.

Back for a bit again. Ignore me if you like.

 

RE: Thanks! Might be a comfortable compromise, posted on January 6, 2024 at 09:45:05
Rod M
Web Geek

Posts: 16521
Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 I don't know if anyone has the info on Bruce's 80hz horn. However, you might try emailing eso as he may have worked with him some of his horns. If you click on posts and then add Edgar to the search with eso as the Author, you might find out more.

FYI: My bass bin dimensions are 20"W x 26"H x 32"D. The actual horn is what I got from Bruce and my brother and I built the cabinet around it and filled it with spray foam. The actual horn is 18"W x 24"H x 24"D. The driver is bolted onto the horn in a box that is not much bigger than the driver in the back.

PS: I found some old measurements with no sub using the Stereophile test CD and a Radio Shack meter adjusting for the inaccuracy of the RS meter. The crossover is 500hz.

HZ SPL

63 70
80 79
100 80
125 78
160 81
200 81
250 79
315 78
400 80
500 77
630 76
800 78

-Rod

 

RE: Thanks! Might be a comfortable compromise, posted on January 6, 2024 at 09:54:33
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5390
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 Reaching 40Hz with a folded horn isn't at all difficult. For one thing assuming it's going into a typical living room you can model in 1/8 space. In most cases you're going to be less than 1/2 wavelength out from the nearest room corner throughout most of the sub pass band, and in addition to the boundary reinforcement you're going to have cabin gain. The hard part lies in knowing how to fold it and design the actual cabinet. There's only one way to do that, and it's the same way that you get to Carnegie Hall: practice, man, practice.

 

RE: Hornresp 1st pass - comments/critiques welcome. 40hz "L" horn, posted on January 7, 2024 at 12:22:12
tomservo
Manufacturer

Posts: 8615
Joined: July 4, 2002



Your right about length, that defines the lowest F it can have any gain over a direct radiator.

You posted a drawing of an old friend, the A-7. I wasn't sure i had the measurements but i found them.

In 2003 i rebuilt a pair of them for a good cause and he didn't care what i did.
If i have seen anything in my life, it is that driver properties and the ability to model things have actually made a pretty big and for me giant difference at work and worth considering drivers when building.

So here i have posted that Altec A-7 with the normal drivers and ones i picked.
For hf it's a bms 4550 an excellent driver and keeping it at least partly Lansing a JBL2226 which i had on hand and looked good at the time.

Notice the difference, on the low end and top end a very noticeable diffidence in raw bandwidth (there is no crossover involved here, these were measurements for figuring that out).

When done, this was a considerably wider bandwidth and flatter speaker than it started and sounded good.


 

RE: Hornresp 1st pass - comments/critiques welcome. 40hz "L" horn, posted on January 7, 2024 at 12:24:14
tomservo
Manufacturer

Posts: 8615
Joined: July 4, 2002



hf raw response bms 4550 vs stock

 

RE: Hornresp 1st pass - comments/critiques welcome. 40hz "L" horn, posted on January 7, 2024 at 12:25:16
tomservo
Manufacturer

Posts: 8615
Joined: July 4, 2002



2226 vs stock raw response

 

RE: very helpful! Not sure how Bruce kept it that short, posted on January 7, 2024 at 21:40:15
Oldbean2
Audiophile

Posts: 945
Location: Midwest US
Joined: March 27, 2022
 Everything I'm modeling in Hornresp is 8-12 inches longer for -3dB at 80hz. But it's not a bad start.

I'm sure his design has a lot more to it than he straight sided DIY horns I would build.

Back for a bit again. Ignore me if you like.

 

RE: I haven't looked at this stuff in years, I'm re-learning a lot, posted on January 8, 2024 at 21:46:55
Oldbean2
Audiophile

Posts: 945
Location: Midwest US
Joined: March 27, 2022



I'm now thinking that a 40hz horn might simply be too big for the room, 14 wide by 24 feet long. Would have to sit too far back from the horn mouth - that's part of what I forgot. Thinking as a musician, 40hz is a logical place; maybe not so logical in practice.

An 80hz straight horn (conical) would be an MUCH easier build for a first attempt, would be about 4 feet out into the room; pull it out from the back wall a bit and the Allison effect frequency is below the horn.

I've worked up a 2 segment horn with a JBL 2220h that sims really flat. Could probably cross as low as 70 and maybe up to 500, though I don't think I'll need to.

I'll keep reading

Back for a bit again. Ignore me if you like.

 

RE: I haven't looked at this stuff in years, I'm re-learning a lot, posted on January 9, 2024 at 05:18:26
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5390
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 If you must go with a straight horn (and there's no justification for it) stand it up on end on legs. Your sim is too flat. With perfectly acceptable ripple it could go much lower. As for sitting back from the horn mouth, my Table Tuba folded horn sub is less than a foot behind my listening position, while the L/C/R are twelve feet in front of me. You can't tell. Crossed where a sub should be, 80Hz, all of the directional information comes from the L/R/C. BTW, it measures 30x30x16 inches, F3 is 28Hz, and it's loaded with an eight inch driver. Direct radiators need large drivers, horns don't.

 

RE: Hornresp 1st pass - comments/critiques welcome. 40hz "L" horn, posted on January 10, 2024 at 10:08:17
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 821
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
 Did you re-use the 800 or 500 Hz. horn with the new driver?

 

RE: Hornresp 1st pass - comments/critiques welcome. 40hz "L" horn, posted on January 10, 2024 at 10:10:19
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 821
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
 Thanks for the curves, Tom. They pretty much tell the story!

 

RE: Hornresp 1st pass - comments/critiques welcome. 40hz "L" horn, posted on January 10, 2024 at 10:15:53
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 821
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
 I have several of the 2226 woofers, which, represent the best of the mud magnet woofers of the last millenium. California made by American Labor also means an almost $600 price for that driver new.

Most of the Chinese made units now sell for 1/3 to 1/4 that price with similar performance.

I fact, SKAR car Subwoofer drivers, at about $300 vs. about $900 for American ones with similar TSP's, make great Tapped Horns!

Of course, I don't mean to preach to the choir here. LOL.

 

RE: Hornresp 1st pass - comments/critiques welcome. 40hz "L" horn, posted on January 11, 2024 at 09:44:27
tomservo
Manufacturer

Posts: 8615
Joined: July 4, 2002



Hi
Yes i did, it was the 511. I did change a couple things other than to the 4550 and 2226 drivers.
There was a spot on the back side of the vertical flare in front of the flat flange that had "sensitive" spot i put some damping material on.
There was a spot mid point on the woofer flare that had a resonance where i glued a brace to the outer cabinet wall. The baffle at the bottom (bare plywood in the picture elsewhere) for the woofer port was added after measuring the box sealed (i didn't want to try and calculate the volume when i can measure it's effect).

When trying to work out a crossover, i found if i moved the horn back an inch and a half, could get a Synergy style crossover with very little or no XO phase shift.
This was a long time ago, i don't have a measurement file in the folder for it but i know i did once haha. Red scale is phase, + - 180 degrees scale. Crossover is about the center left to right

 

RE: Hornresp 1st pass - comments/critiques welcome. 40hz "L" horn, posted on January 11, 2024 at 11:55:24
freddyi
Audiophile

Posts: 3852
Joined: December 6, 2001
 Hi - if it models ok, I would get a woofer with ore x-max than a 2220H. FWIW I ran 2220H in K-horn and with Bruce's "Monolith" and it distorted in the K-horn vs the lowly K33 and was out-performed by a Dayton-Eminence 295-070 15" with the Monolith

2220H may have all he power you need with that proposed horn -?

Q 2-15" eq-ed reflex box could make some noise at 40
Karlson Evangelist

 

RE: thanks. Looks like i need to study some more. I can see the possibilities, posted on January 13, 2024 at 13:47:52
Oldbean2
Audiophile

Posts: 945
Location: Midwest US
Joined: March 27, 2022
 The Kappalite 3015LF seems like a possible candidate. I might fool around with some old fashioned graph paper and see what I can come up with



Back for a bit again. Ignore me if you like.

 

RE: thanks. Actually the Kappalite 3015LF looks decent, posted on January 13, 2024 at 13:52:05
Oldbean2
Audiophile

Posts: 945
Location: Midwest US
Joined: March 27, 2022
 Or even the 3015, but I think the LF version goes high enough for my needs and will definitely go lower

And almost twice the xmax of the 2220h

Back for a bit again. Ignore me if you like.

 

RE: thanks. Looks like i need to study some more. I can see the possibilities, posted on January 13, 2024 at 19:03:30
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5390
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 The 3015LF is a great subwoofer driver, for pro-sound folded horns. IMO and IME it makes no sense for use in the home.

 

RE: ok, I guess I'll stick to the 2220h. Sim says I can get around 125dB before xmax, posted on January 14, 2024 at 13:17:02
Oldbean2
Audiophile

Posts: 945
Location: Midwest US
Joined: March 27, 2022
 which should be sufficient in a home setting

Looking at folding, I think I can make it a fairly easy, if somewhat space inefficient build. No folds over 90 degrees, roughly 36" wide 40" depth 74" height.

Still learning...


Back for a bit again. Ignore me if you like.

 

RE: ok, I guess I'll stick to the 2220h. Sim says I can get around 125dB before xmax, posted on January 14, 2024 at 14:53:40
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5390
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 115dB is sufficient in a home setting. As for folds over 90 degrees, it doesn't matter with a sub. Reflectors aren't even necessary so long as the bend to bend distance is less than 1/4 wavelength. For that matter you can use 180 degree bends up to 2kHz, but only with fully rounded bends.

 

RE: Thanks. I think I have enough to chew on for a while, posted on January 14, 2024 at 20:46:03
Oldbean2
Audiophile

Posts: 945
Location: Midwest US
Joined: March 27, 2022
 I'll see if I can get a diagram together and will likely have a lot more questions

Back for a bit again. Ignore me if you like.

 

RE: Hornresp 1st pass - comments/critiques welcome. 40hz "L" horn, posted on January 17, 2024 at 06:12:25
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 821
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
 The 2220 is the very best woofer, simulated and measured, in my Edgarhorn Titans.................as a MIDbass woofer.
The K-33 is still the main woofer in Khorns and has weaker output at it's top end vs. those with larger magnets yielding a higher bl product. For a Khorn, it uses the back chamber resonance, along with corner loading to extend the bass down. (I believe in subwoofers for low bass).

Paul Klipsch even wrote a letter to you about Thiele/Small parameters not applying to Horns, but to bass reflex..........not true.

Time moves on. Don Keele and a Georgia Tech. Professor W Marshall Leach wrote about using those parameters for bass horn design.

I believe our good friends, Tom Danley and W. Fitzmaurice make great use of those parameters, along with Mr. Mcbean in Hornresp.

The application of Science and Software save a lot of Sawdust!

 

RE: thanks. Actually the Kappalite 3015LF looks decent, posted on January 17, 2024 at 06:45:10
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 821
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
 It all depends on the SYSTEM approach to design. Sealed, reflex, tapped, or full horn? Also price is always a factor.

What bandwidth you intend to cover, how large is the ROOM, and how are you loading the speaker with proximity to the walls and corners?

Lots of woofer choices these days and there is NO "one size fits all."

 

RE: Per the below exchange with Bill, I'm back to the 2220h, posted on January 17, 2024 at 18:52:55
Oldbean2
Audiophile

Posts: 945
Location: Midwest US
Joined: March 27, 2022
 I would like to cover 40 - 270hz, roughly 2 2/3 octaves; a bit of a stretch but should be manageable. Steep crossover to Oris Orphean horns above, likely a tapped horn below.

Room is 14 feet wide, 28 deep. Horns will be in corners, against side walls. With a couple of 90 degree folds they will be roughly 36"x40"x76" w/d/h. Mouth 10,000 sqcm, roughly 33.5" wide and 46" high

No WAF issues, I'm building this for my daughter and her husband. She wants a full horn system, size and looks are secondary to sound.

Back for a bit again. Ignore me if you like.

 

RE: Per the below exchange with Bill, I'm back to the 2220h, posted on January 17, 2024 at 19:51:27
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 821
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007



I have a full Edgarhorn Titan II system, with single full horn mono subwoofer in between that sound incredible with voice coils aligned. One choke on woofer, and 1 capacitor on mid and tweeter horns.

I had Klipshorns for 30 years and also Klipach Theater Jubilee Clones (no longer made) with Active Xover that went down to 30 H. with a little EQ.

Did you use Hornresp for your design to create plans or use proven ones from others? I helped a Klipsch Dealer build mine out of 18mm baltic birch 11 years ago, and got them when he passed, I have yet to finish the raw wood.

A proven folded horn (Modified Klipsch Jubilee bass bin) that use 3 12" woofers per horn, they are tri-fold, 4 ft. long 60-70 hz. out of corners cutoff) and behave like 8 foot horns in corners. 40-400 hz. is no problem. I have have a DWG file I have had all this time that I have yet to print out. I had Jubilee (Pro Theater types) with 2 12's that had a beautiful Tiger Wood veneer built by a Canadian friend, replace by the Incredible Danley SH-50 Synergy Horns that go from 40-18 Khz. in an amazingly small package as LCR in my Home Theater.
I also created easy to build Quarter Pie bass horn that are very easy to build. Nothing beats the sound of good horns.
They are 42" tall by 39 wide, 24" deep made to fit in a corner.
Here's a Hornresp model of them in and out of corners black .5 pi vs gray 2 pi overlay, black (corner) curve offset by -6 db for clarity.

Let me know if you want pictures or data.

 

RE: Per the below exchange with Bill, I'm back to the 2220h, posted on January 27, 2024 at 13:07:36
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 821
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
 I would go with an 80-500 Hz. horn and do a Tapped horn subwoofer

 

"around 125dB", posted on January 28, 2024 at 22:37:40
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17549
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 It is my understanding that at 125db you will suffer immediate permanent hearing loss.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: "around 125dB", posted on January 29, 2024 at 05:23:54
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5390
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 "It is my understanding that at 125db you will suffer immediate permanent hearing loss."

It wouldn't be pleasant, and with extended exposure it would cause injury, but it wouldn't be immediate. One wouldn't listen at those levels anyway. If you think it seems like a good idea clearly you've never experienced it.

 

RE: "around 125dB", posted on January 29, 2024 at 05:40:48
mg16
Audiophile

Posts: 1031
Joined: October 18, 2001
Contributor
  Since: March 11, 2021
 Walked out after a Foghat/J. Geils concert ended in the 70's. Festival seating, so we were right down front at the old Civic Arena in Pittsburgh.
Go out to the parking lot, and noticed my ears were ringing, and it sounded like cotton was stuffed in my ears. That was in my 20's, and I'm 72 now with tinnitus.
Like they say:
"Too soon old, and too late smart"
mg16

 

RE: "around 125dB", posted on January 29, 2024 at 08:07:27
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5390
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 I've been in bands since 1965, worked the FOH at a major concert venue where 110dB was the average for three years. My hearing tests fine, with an upper limit of 12kHz, which is normal for my age. I spent a lot of time shooting too, back in '72, when no one wore protection. If anyone was going to join the Pete Townshend club it would be me, but somehow I've managed to avoid it.

 

Page processed in 0.033 seconds.

[ Top Top of Page ] [ Contact Us ] [ Support/Wish List ] [ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
[ General ] [ Speakers ] [ Tubes ] [ Vinyl ] [ Digital ] [ Hi-Rez ] [ Video Asylum ] [ Cables ] [ Tweaks/DIY ] [ Music ] [ Films ]