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i've got a new iMac M3 Sonoma, which has only 2 ports USB 4
to take advantage of my USB cables i'm forced to use an adapter to USB-A
i think my former SQ is now a little worse, a little harder perhaps
i heard there are already available audiophile USB cables wearing that USB 4 (or USB-C) end
any recommendations?
Follow Ups:
See the description below; it apparently presumes a Type C connector.As I understand, Type C is a connector standard not a protocol. In the EU, as I understand, is required on all new devices regardless of the USB protocol that the device uses.
So Paco's new iMAC, (I'm jealous), uses USB 4. Perhaps the questions are (i) whether old cables inherently transmit USB 4's 40+ gbps or greater, and (ii) whether the connector adaptors, as mentioned by AbeCollins, "throttle" that 40+ gbps.
Dmitri Shostakovich
Edits: 12/09/23 12/09/23 12/09/23 12/09/23
No.
Part of USB is what is called the device enumeration.
The DAC will tell its properties like supported bit dept and sample rate, etc.
If it is a UAC2 device, the speed of the bus will always be High Speed (480 Mhz).
Older DACs (UAC1) only works with Full Speed (12 Mhz).
It is the USB receiver of the DAC that determines the speed.
The Well Tempered Computer
I think the question though is whether all cables can handle the highest speed and the answer to that is also no. Those cheap flimsy cables probably won't, a well made cable from Anker or Apple will, but even then there are all grades and specs of cables from them. And then there is the issue of some cables only carry power and won't work at all.
But you are right in that the limit of the devices is what determines speed.
I agree that cheap cables might not do the job; also many cables sold are intended only for recharging devices, not for carrying data and certainly not a highest speeds.
On the other hand exotic & expensive "audiophile" cables are certainly poor value and might not even be as good quality utility cables.
Recently I bought some of these cables, (see link), from Amazon.ca; not the cheapest cables but specified for USB 3.2 Gen2 transmission and of obvious good quality.
Dmitri Shostakovich
They make a lot of claims but then also have a few disclaimers with that cable. And this is where it all gets so confusing. What exactly does it support? It says Thunderbolt 3, but TB3 has to be certified. 10gbps on USB-A? Well maybe, but how many USB-A devices support that? Charging? Maybe.
I have a USB-C to USB-C cable that is USB 3.2 gen 2 that connects my monitor to my Macbook Air M1 that supports 4k video, audio AND charging simultaneously, plus data to/from the built in hub. That's really nice in that I have just one cable plugged into my computer that does everything.
As I posted elsewhere in this thread, even super hi-res audio is an afterthought at these speeds. I think it worked out to be 19mbps at 24/384, so with overhead maybe 20mbps. That's one thousandth of a 20gbps cable! What in the world do audio people think is so special about it that they buy audiophile USB cables?
It always seemed to me that the audiophile brands needed to instill FUD into everything so they can sell you something.
Of course not. A "printer cable" = USB1 can't handle high bit rates.
That was the fun with the first generation audiophile USB cables. They could handle full speed but failed miserably handling high speed.
Your best bet is to use a certified cable but if it is certified to handle High Speed, you don't need a one handling higher bitrates as your USB DAC won't use it.
The Well Tempered Computer
I've been looking at this over the last few weeks as I consider replacing my iMac, and this is one topic that keeps coming up. The lower end Macs, both Macbook Air and Mac Mini, only have 2 Thunderbolt 4/USB-4 ports and the cables you use matter. If you want Thunderbolt, and I did, almost none of the cables you buy can handle it. Only those specifically for TB can. USB-4 is the same. And TB has to be certified so you can't just buy an off-brand. With USB-4 you are taking the manufacturers word that it'll work with it.
I've said many times to anybody that would listen that the bitrates that music uses, even 24/384 or DSD512, barely uses the capability of the ports and cables. It is a drop in the bucket and can re-transmit as much as necessary to get it right.
... If I'm understanding correctly, the constraint isn't likely to be the cables or connector but rather the connected device.
Dmitri Shostakovich
Indeed.
Of course all components should be able to cope with the speed but the
peripheral device limits the max speed.
The Well Tempered Computer
Basically it all runs at the speed of the slowest device/cable/adapter/interface. There isn't anything that'll really run faster then 10gbps, so that 40gbps Thunderbolt 4 port isn't going to be any faster that the older 20gbps TB2. It only matters if you have multiple devices, and even then I'm not sure you can just split it without significant overhead.
This is an audio forum and none of this matters because even 24/384 audio is a tiny fraction of that at 19mbps, or one thousandth of a Thunderbolt 2 or USB 3.2 port.
There's a long but interesting article linked below that goes into great detail but for the average user I don't think it matters much. Attention to the differences come into play when you're attaching multiple very high speed external devices to your laptop / computer including multiple displays.
Excerpt from the article linked below :
"A USB4 port can only support one display. Thunderbolt 4 can support two 4K displays.
The good thing about USB4 is that it will mean that manufacturers can release more powerful hubs and docks that are not Thunderbolt, at a cheaper cost.
However, since Thunderbolt products are certified, it means that they are of the highest standard. USB4 devices don't need to be certified and so eventually we will see many USB4 devices flooding the market with varying degrees of quality, as we see with USB-C hubs today.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Who owns Thunderbolt? Intel or Apple?
Apple and Intel have collaborated on Thunderbolt technology since 2010, releasing its first Thunderbolt MacBook in 2011.
Apple even registered the trademark "Thunderbolt" although it passed this on to Intel, in return for "unrestricted use of the technology". But Intel is the official owner of the Thunderbolt technology.
Before this agreement, the technology was known by Intel as "Light Peak".
There were 6 different connectors for USB and you needed a drawer full of cables and adapters to make them work together. They decided to consolidate them all into Universal connector called USB-C. Now there are 7 different connectors and you need a bigger drawer full of cables and adapters.
Now they are doing the same with protocols...
AudioQuest has a few USB-B to USB-C DAC cables.Or you can try one of these adapters and continue to use your existing USB-B to USB-A DAC cable.
Edits: 12/08/23
as i said, i'm already using those adapters,
that's why i'm looking for cables able to avoid them
those AudioQuest cables look interesting, i'll explore them...
I hope a new cable solves your SQ problem since you can't use a network streamer for whatever reason.Also, there are a variety of USB decrapifiers, galvanic isolators, regenerators, etc. on the market and these were hugely popular several years ago. I have a few such goodies but most modern DACs don't need them. Some of these are snake oil while others can do some good. FWIW, my AQ Jitterbugs for USB do nothing useful at all.
Edits: 12/08/23
For the cost (maybe less) of an "audiophile" USB cable, I'd try a Rasberry Pi streamer to replace your computer in the singal path. I did this a few years ago and am quite happy.
If you need a decent USB cable, Ghent can make you what you need at a reasonable cost.
Gsquared
yep, but for a variety of reasons i must keep my computer as a source, combined with Audirvana
as for Ghent, after some bad experiences i'm avoiding Chinese companies
I use Audirvana on an older Macbook Pro that also only has USB-C ports, and use a Syntech usb-c to usb-a adapter that is rated to 5gbps. Not all adapters are created equal. And I also use Audirvana. I find that plugging the usb-a cable from the DAC directly into the adapter sounds better than using streaming to a Raspberry Pi that uses the same cable/dac/everything else. In fact, it is the best sounding digital I've heard in my system.
But that brings up another point. Audirvana can stream to any device running UPnP/DLNA. I mostly do that because it is more convenient having the MBP next to me on the couch even if it doesn't sound quite as good. And why doesn't it sound as good? Well, AV's claim to fame is that they've made the Mac they run on super quiet. I can't say the same about the Raspberry Pi that I use.
i'm using exactly the same Siltech adaptergood to know you prefer adapter than streaming to RP
i'd try one those cables USB-C to USB-B to bypass the adapter
at any rate, my present iMac 24" should sound better than my old 27" for two reasons:
now the power supply is external (like in the Mac laptops), and the HD is now SSD (1T)
Edits: 12/09/23
are you running a long USB cable? That could pick up some noise. For a cable I'm running a 1M Chinese Odin clone that was talked about on the cable asylum about a year ago. It was cheap enough, and they can probably make a USB-C to USB-B type too. Mine is A to B because the RPi doesn't have a C output, hence the adapter when I use it with a Mac.
nope, my USB cable is just 1 meter, and very well protected; also, it is the same cable that i used before, so it seems that the present (small) problems are due to another reason, my guess being the adapter...
Before you blame a passive adapter maybe you should consider that your iMac is noisier than your old Mac. That's a much bigger change than adding the adapter.
well, you never know for sure, but in fact the new iMac 24" should sound better than the old iMac 27", at least for 3 reasons: 1. the new M3 processor is way better; 2. the new iMac do not have internal power supply, but external, similar to Mac laptops; 3. the new HD is SSD
You would think so but not necessarily. I also would wonder whether Audirvana can control the M1/2/3 boards the way they could control the older machines. It's a different architecture. I know they ported the code over to Apple silicon but that doesn't mean the techniques they use still work. I'll have to try my M1 Macbook Air vs. my i5 Macbook Pro, if I can make it work with the TV as monitor since the screen is cracked.
When I switch from the Raspberry Pi feeding my DAC to my Macbook Pro I definitely hear a difference for the better, and when I do that I use that adapter.
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