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Did you give up on subwoofers for Quad ESL-63s?

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I have a pair of ESL-63s which I really like. I tried Gradient's SW-63 dipole woofers with them, so I have that experience.

I am wondering how many people tried one or more subs with these speakers and ended up returning to the Quads alone? While the Quads will neither go very deep nor play very loudly, I have been impressed with the quality of bass they provide, which is tuneful and well integrated with the whole.

Best,

George

Follow Ups:

RE: Did you give up on subwoofers for Quad ESL-63s? - fredtr 17:06:32 11/21/14 (0)
I liked the Gradient's a lot better not running the Quad signal through the crossover. I changed the caps in the speakers to achieve the crossover point.
RE: Did you give up on subwoofers for Quad ESL-63s? - kentaja 14:23:00 11/20/14 (5)
The Gradient was OK for its day, just OK. There were better systems available even then. But it physically mated well with the Quad, was pretty much plug-and-play, did improve things in some ways and was relatively affordable compared to better options. It did sully to some extent the qualities that attract people to the Quad in the first place.

In the here-and-now there are significantly better woofer systems available. If implemented correctly they can indeed extend the bottom end, provide improved system dynamics and not screw up the Quad.

I won't give any specific recommendations for woofers there are many good systems available depending on one's budget. Even budget units can be quite impressive. The key is to blend them in as low as possible, 40Hz or so in most cases, and let the Quad run full range, no crossover filter on the Quad. Two subs will produce the best results even at a low crossover point.
- RE: Did you give up on subwoofers for Quad ESL-63s? - louie3 07:46:11 11/21/14 (2)
  Kent:
  
  I get pretty good results with a Dahlquist LP1 electronic crossover set about 60hz, running my 63's through the LP 1.
  
  While I do hear a very slight difference between through the crossover and full range, I seem to have significantly more dynamic range using the crossover as it is intended.
  
  Right now I am using a pair of homebuilt subs that sound pretty good to me, although they do not go much deeper than about 25hz, they add the warmth and spatial information that comes with deeper bass than the Quads will do.
  
  As you probably know, the LP1 is passive (one cap) on top and active only on the bottom.
  
  Do you think the LP1 might be good enough to run this way, or am I just fooling myself?
  
  Thanks
  - RE: Did you give up on subwoofers for Quad ESL-63s? - kentaja 10:00:28 11/21/14 (1)
    The LP-1 is a nice crossover. It does not have the controls on the low pass like some modern designs but this is not a huge deal if one is willing to fiddle with placement. Modern digital crossovers are pretty cheap these days so it does not have to break the bank to experiment with one as a low pass filter. For the high pass a series cap is the way to go.
    
    Even a simple series cap will degrade performance to a degree, not much, but the benefit of greater system dynamics will be worth the trade-off for some. Others may want greater midrange purity. No right answer here more a matter of taste.
    - RE: Did you give up on subwoofers for Quad ESL-63s? - louie3 10:18:16 11/21/14 (0)
      Thanks for your time, Kent,
      
      I have tried the ubiquitous Behringer "digital" crossover and found it fine running the top end full range...the Behringer does awful things to the top end signal.
      
      Unfortunately, the Behringer lasted about six months before it developed a problem that caused it to shut off on its own.
      
      The LP 1 is putting along after 30 or so years.
      
      For me the only drawback of the LP 1 is that the crossover point for the top end of the system is fixed by either a cap or resistor or a combination based on the input impedance of the top end amp.
      
      Which means that to put my tube amps into the system periodically I have to change a cap...or ignore the crossover point.
      
      You are right about the effect of that series cap. All the caps in mine have been upgraded to Kimber Kaps. This small change made the impact of running the top end through the LP 1, as I said, almost imperceptible.
      
      And a matter of taste. Some days I run the Quads full range, some days through the LP 1, not really sure which I prefer...yet.
- RE: Did you give up on subwoofers for Quad ESL-63s? - George S. Roland 19:39:31 11/20/14 (1)
  Thanks, Kent.
  
  I suspect that, by now, you have probably heard and/or worked on 988s, 989s, 2805s and 2905s.
  
  Which one is your current favorite and, related to my inquiry, do you regularly use a sub?
  
  I get bitten by the sub question now and then, but the ESL-63s I have are so clean sounding, I probably ought to be grateful for them and stop succumbing to change-itis.
  
  George
  - RE: Did you give up on subwoofers for Quad ESL-63s? - kentaja 05:10:05 11/21/14 (0)
    Overall I find the bass of the 63 to be satisfying but at times I could want for more. If I used the 63 exclusively I would want good subs.
    
    I don't use subs for a couple reasons. I have to listen to every speaker I service and I don't want to get keyed in on a sound that is using subs. When I want more extension and slam in the bottom octaves I listen to my SoundLabs.
    
    The 63 and its derivatives sound more a like than not. I own a pair of 989 and 2905. Don't think I much care for the additional bass panels. The extra panels do add some energy in the bottom but seems to muddy up the midrange a bit. I like the additional rigidity and mass that the 2905 frame offers. My 2905 are modified turning off the additional bass panels and I have removed all the Chinese panels/electronics and replaced with them with UK produced 63 parts.
    
    For those that own 63 or 98 series speakers and wish to have the additional rigidity and mass of the 05 frame the Mye Stand is an excellent upgrade. It accomplishes the same task for far less money than switching to the 05 series.
RE: Did you give up on subwoofers for Quad ESL-63s? - AJ 13:12:57 11/20/14 (6)
What is your experience with the Gradient? My issue with subs -not so much dipole vs. non-dipole- rather is the crossover impingement on quality of sound.

I find that crossovers largely made of op-amps really muddy the electrostatic purity.

For this reason I like the the REL concept of subwoofer which runs off the highlevel speaker input of the sub so that there is no crossover in the mix of the electrostatic.

This is what I have tried with my ESLs and USA Monitors. I agree that the Quad bass is very good for what it is- I could live with it as is it is easily.
- RE: Did you give up on subwoofers for Quad ESL-63s? - George S. Roland 19:29:47 11/20/14 (5)
  Thanks for your reply. I liked the Gradient's bass extension but I didn't like what it did to the sound of my Quads. I experienced a noticeable coloration to the Quads when the SW-63's were in use.
  
  A double-edged sword for me, too, was that the Gradients put the Quad's acoustical center closer to my ear level resulting in a bit more detail, I wasn't crazy about the massive look of the whole--a little overwhelming visually.
  
  Have you any recommendations regarding an REL sub to try?
  - RE: Did you give up on subwoofers for Quad ESL-63s? - AJ 16:28:03 11/21/14 (0)
    Hi,
    
    I am now using a pair of REL new S2 series 10" drivers with matching passive in each box. The are very tight and articulate a pretty good combination with the Quads.
    
    My real experiment is coming up with the Beveridge electrostatics and the RELs -so far so good.
  - RE: Did you give up on subwoofers for Quad ESL-63s? - kentaja 05:02:04 11/21/14 (3)
    I do not much care for the look of the Quad/Gradient combo. And I think it raises the Quad a little two high. Overall I liked the presentation but the stand Quad supplied, Stand & Deliver, gets the height off the floor just right.
    
    The Gradient raises the Quad about 14" off the floor, the Stand & Deliver about 9".
    - RE: Did you give up on subwoofers for Quad ESL-63s? - jfteuber@gmail.com 10:27:34 10/07/20 (0)
      Have you tried the Vandersteen subs. I use a stereo pair of the older 2SW with 1st order crossovers, and I find them pretty transparent and a good match for both my Quad ESL 989 and, prior to that, the ESL 63 US monitor. They now have newer and costlier options, but the design principles and sonic approach have remained consistent over the years. Good luck, Jeffrey
      Jeffrey
    - RE: Did you give up on subwoofers for Quad ESL-63s? - George S. Roland 07:59:58 11/21/14 (1)
      I agree with you about the look. I bought a pair of stand and deliver stands for my ESL-63s shortly after I bought them. I really like the way they look. The overall visual configuration is not as overwhelming as it is with ESL-63s on top of Gradient's SW-63.
      
      I also realized considerable sonic benefit from the stand and deliver stands. At first the bass seemed a bit lacking with the ESL-63s up off the floor, but it shortly became apparent that the bass was cleaner and more articulate in that position. Directly on the floor, my ESL-63s sounded a bit too lush in the bass.
      
      George
      - RE: Did you give up on subwoofers for Quad ESL-63s? - kentaja 10:15:32 11/21/14 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Did you give up on subwoofers for Quad ESL-63s? posted by George S. Roland on November 21, 2014 at 07:59:58
        
        Yes the stand does lean out the presentation just a hair but the bass is far more articulate. A little more kick on the bottom with them on the floor. I like them either way and listen on-and-off the floor regularly.

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