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...and it involves Israel providing the security there for indefinite period of time.I am glad they decided that way... this is the ONLY way of assuring peace for both the Israelis and the local population.
I intentionally used the words "long term", as there is no force outside the Israel capable of providing peace in that region. Perhaps it will appear of the stage in a few years... but I am not optimistic.
Edits: 11/07/23Follow Ups:
'Monstrous terror organisation': Hamas committed to 'demolishing State of Israel, it's very complex' says France 24
"Let's get this straight, Hamas slaughter unarmed civilians in their houses then hide amongst the Palestinian population claiming Israel is committing genocide. Am I missing something here?
... Just to add a critical component, there is no shortage of food, fuel, water, or medicine in Gaza right now. Hamas has plenty of it, that they are hoarding in their bombproof tunnels. As a result babies are dying because hospitals don't have enough fuel to run their incubators. Hamas is the biggest enemy of the Palestinians.
Israel's progress has been remarkable - gradual, in order to reduce any civilian deaths, but still deadly where needed. The main concern today is that some Western powers will ratchet their demands on Israel to stop the operation. An incredibly interesting report by Emil Shleimovich, very detailed and covering a lot of territory, the bottom line is very positive for Israel... albeit not for Netanyahu, who is on his way out - long overdue, according to many.
All this would be great cause for celebration if not the memory of 1,400 people slaughtered by that low form of life.
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It seems that Israel allowed Hamas to control Palestine and to strike Israel. Got to have an enemy, you know. The USA is, yeah, right, more arms sales.I'm not sure where this goes from here, though, as I think the German occupation of France is a good comparison. How to control a territory when you are hated is a big problem.
Edits: 11/08/23
Live and learn... and read this forum.
I also did not realize Israel was not able to control Gaza... it "only" did it for forty years.
Again... live and read this forum, where knowledge of history is not much to be proud of.
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so, what's your point?
Israel could have controlled Gaza forever.
Too bad it decided to make a good will gesture and pull out, expecting the gazans to build good life for themselves.
We all know what they did instead.
In the same vein the Germans could have controlled France forever, if not for their losses on the fronts. The inconvenience was minor.
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There is a playbook for it.
Edits: 11/07/23
I think it was in the seventies that a book was published in the USSR, with a catchy title: "Zionism = Fascism"
My friend's mother had it and liked to talk about it.
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there's links I could post but I'm not going to do this so look up Isaac and Ishmael and read it for yourself. The story of Isaac and Ishmael is several thousand years old.
They have been fighting and warring since the beginning of all this crap from a long time ago. It was also mentioned in an episode of the West Wing TV show. I don't remember the year but Bush was president is all I remember, the skull and bones guy with a few screws loose in the skull.
There's not going to be a long term solution until Palestine gets its own country. And who is going to hand over the land to do that...
"There's not going to be a long term solution until Palestine gets its own country."Check your history book... they HAD it in 1948. I am a kind guy, so I will even supply the key words: Palestinian Mandate.
Now, a question for extra credit: who accepted it, and who did not?
Now... your biggest mistake... you say no peace until they get their state?
Wrong again. The only way to achieve piece in that region is by destroying Israel. Nothing less will do.
Edits: 11/07/23
" The only way to achieve piece in that region is by destroying Israel. Nothing less will do. "
that's what ALL of them want in the mideast, of course. Look who's helping Hamas along. So what's the problem then with what I said? Did you look up the story?? Lotsa of them online.
I've studied history in college and books. One of my great interests was World Lit. Read a bunch about many things with great professors (not adjuncts) with never a mention of right/wrong, just facts.
That's not what we've had for 30 years in the lecture halls and classrooms. I should know, my wife is a teacher. The prof's today are teaching a bunch of shit and giving to us the reactions from the students today.
Did you see the protests in DC this weekend? That was NOT a small thing, it was multi-thousands. And not just only there either.
Alot has happened before and after the six day war. Israel wants the 'holy land' and so does Islam. As always, the short is that Humans want revenge on their way to Control. Kill kill kill
Jerusalem has been attacked 52 times, captured and recaptured 44 times, besieged 23 times, and destroyed twice.
This is going to go on for a long time, you'll see. I don't write the books, I have just read about all of this that has been and will go on. If you think that looking for a peaceful solution will take place someday, forget it. It will end up to be something else
"Alot has happened before and after the six day war. Israel wants the 'holy land' and so does Islam."
The fact - both were given land. Jews agreed and kept working, turning theirs into a garden that impresses the rest of the world.
Arabs wanted the whole thing and to kill the Jews. They have been trying just that for about 75 years, while keeping their population in camps.
Their loss. But the bottom line is ugly - there will always be war, because arabs are not going to stop trying. Their last hope is nuclear Iran, that will finally settle the score.
Fat chance of that.
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I worked for Lockheed in Ryadh from '85 to '87, which certainly does not give me any leg up on understanding Arab politics (as a matter of fact, we were explicitly instructed to NOT discuss politics or religion with the citizens of The KSA), but it did leave me with the definite impression that they (meaning the Arabs that I had the dubious pleasure of interacting with) were an unreasonable group of people.
"No Smocking Gun..."
Edits: 11/07/23 11/07/23 11/07/23
A friend worked in Dammam for a year or so during GW1 - 1990-1991. Oil pipeline maintanance diver.
He says it was the most surreal year of his life.
He had to go to Ryahd a few times and they stopped out of curiosity to watch beheadings at "Chop Chop Square"...... Another world in another time ....
Trying to hide from entropy
John K
I was friends with a guy from Scotland who was always saying he wanted to go to Chop Square to watch the show and he wanted me to go along. (Maybe because I had access to a vehicle.) Knock yourself out, I told him, but that is something I have no desire to observe.
"No Smocking Gun..."
Edits: 11/07/23
It was the 418th anniversary of The Gunpowder Plot the other day.
I listened to a podcast about it - the details of why, who, how etc, and what happened after they were caught.
So some who were caught were dragged behind a cart to The Tower square, disembowelled, then had their limbs chopped off.
And you think to yourself "Holy crap, thank goodness nobody does that kind of barbaric shit today!".
And then you think "Oh ... wait a minute" ......
Trying to hide from entropy
John K
I wonder if Khashoggi was even dead before MBS's butchers started using the bone saws on him.
"No Smocking Gun..."
I had a customer who worked in drilling over there, at a green field site out in the middle of nowhere.
Crazy security everywhere.
One day, some dirty looking Arab guy came running at him out of the sand hills waving around a star picket. He got hit and his arm was broken.
One of the slack arse security guys took the dirty Arab guy over the hill. There was a short burst of gunfire.
The security guy came back and said something like "So sorry about that" and took him to hospital.
End of story.
Trying to hide from entropy
John K
The arabs have turned down multiple 2 state solutions since 1948.
In 2005, 21 Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip were unilaterally dismantled and Israeli settlers and army evacuated from inside the Gaza Strip. This was done as a goodwill gesture.
The Hamas rockets started immmediately.
Infrastructure, like state of the art greenhouses, was trashed.
The Gaza strip has received enough aid to turn it into paradise, but the money was stolen or misappropriated for weapons.
In WW2, ground zero for the American Nagasaki bomb was the largest Catholic cathedral in the Far East.
Targets for the bombing of Germany were generally 'centreville'. No one builds armnaments factories in the town square.
Kissinger carpet-bombed most of SE Asia.
Since 2005, the Israelis have 'quarantined' the strip.
Despite tales of privation, Hamas has managed to smuggler in thousands of weapons, sometimes in the trunk of UN cars. They launch rockets from hospitals and schools and if you look at the rock-throwing mobs the Hamas are at the back, hiding behind the kids.
The only excuse for the October massacre I have heard is 'they deserved it'. Whatever 'it' was, it was in large part self inflicted.
The canard that 'We're not antisemitic, just against Israel' has been unmasked by events around the world, most recently at Cornell. A Montreal synagogue has just been firebombed.
The civilians in Gaza have been indoctrinated over 15 years. The children are given terrorist dolls, complete with gun and baclava. The crowd cheered on 911 and on hearing of the Oct. massacre. Some looted the Israeli villages while the blood and bodies were there.
The policy of quarantine has failed.
...it is going to fall on deaf ears.
This is not even unfortunate any longer, it is simply a fact of life, like a rain or one's need to urinate. Anti-Semitism is growing and I have been exposing that "I am just against some Israeli policies!" horseshit for decades now.
I wonder what the reaction of those Cornell anti-Semitic idiots would be if some radical group entered their campus and slaughtered 1,400 of them?
Would they still be holding demonstrations in bloody murderers' support?
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wish we could show them the video.
By the way as a student I hitch-hiked all through the West bank and visited the hospital in Ramallah. This was in between Intifadas.
View YouTube Video
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It is hard to remeber when the alligators are snapping at your heels to drain the swamp
I gave up hope of a long term peace solution in the region decades back. Rational decision-making requires "all" parties to agree and stick to it.
Look at the longterm turmoil between the Sunni and Shia ( Bloods and the Crips).
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...the only one acceptable to arabs is extermination of Israel and Jews?
But you can CONTROL the situation... just like we mostly control crime, without any goal of eliminating it.
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I was naïve for a long time not knowing how deep the hatred was there. I have held my breath for many years WWIII would be triggered by the "next blow up.
Control might solve Gaza but not the surrounding threat.
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Fortunately, you hands are less tied when dealing with foreign armies. For instance, Israel has been killing the Iranians in Syria, and that, for some reason, did not spoil lunch hour for Harvard students.
Those same students did not lose much sleep when Syrian Asad kept killing Arabs of other faith branch.
Those students are so dumb you can a lot of killing without them realizing what is happening. Which is a blessing, so Israel can conduct many operations without their idiotic cry.
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Hmmm sounds like an increasing potential for Israeli settlements in Gaza?
They have done that... they don't need yet another internal gaping wound.
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Isn't this just a nice way of saying "occupation". I wonder what Israel is going to do differently from previous failed attempts at occupation of a Mideast region. Sounds like a black hole for resources.
Biden would support this at his domestic peril. Bibi, of course, would prefer a regime change in the U.S..
No doubt at this time Joe supports assistance 100%. But will that be enough? Can the US and Israel go it alone or nearly so?
If Biden supports this and the left and the young stay home in 2024 there will be no West.
If that's truly the case, maybe the west's period of dominance is rightfully coming to an end . . . Or at least a properly diminished role in the general order of things. Survival of the fittest and all that. Don't fear the reaper.
When rubber hits the road the West has demonstrated the ability to group and do what's right.
It is basically the old Wild West movie... a guy farming his land and milking his goats until the bandits slaughter his family... then he gets that old rifle off the wall and kills the scum.
Reluctant and standoffish at first... fierce and determined when push comes to shove.
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I used to be very apathetic about voting. So I have to give trump credit for one thing--I have not stayed home since him and I do not plan on staying home for any others. I showed up for the one today.
"No Smocking Gun..."
Words don't matter much, what IS important is the final realization that you can not tolerate someone shooting rockets at your people.No state would have tolerated it as long as Israel did... no state would tolerate it... period.
I presume there is work under way on arranging for the international peace forces, which would be a preferred solution, but that is going to take time.
Edits: 11/07/23
Does Israel have the resources necessary to occupy Gaza, probably against the will of residents while dealing with insurgents? I'm thinking they're going to need outside "help" to successfully pull off that one . . . Help that may not be there when needed.
They seem to be doing the job in the West Bank.
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First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass
Don't you see Veektor wants to have the goon squad in place so that when those "settlers" decide to acquire the beachfront property nothing like a few measly Palestinians stand in the way.
Edits: 11/07/23
...you have been practicing the "When did you stop beating your wife" line of questions.
Sorry, no cigar.
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Recent attempts at occupation by others elsewhere but nearby don't strike you as some kind of cautionary tale?
First of all - there is nothing inherently wrong with occupation - it is just a tool, which can be used productively or oppressively. Certainly our occupation of Germany and Japan was a good example of the former.
However, Israel is not talking about occupation in that case, they are discussing the police operation. Just a force to keep an order and prevent criminal groups from forming - just like your local cops do. They are not considering replacing the government, running the economy or other such things that normally happen during the occupation.
But you used that word purposely, as in some minds it only comes with negative connotation.
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While the past doesn't necessarily predict the future, recent Mideast occupations or police operations if you prefer, have not gone well for the police force. Typically a colossal resource drain and not particularly successful. Best of luck to Israel and partners!
I would say this WAS successful presence.Since their departure in 2005 close to 20,000 rockets were launched from Gaza.
That is what the "palestinians" understand by self determination.
Edits: 11/07/23 11/07/23
So annexation of Gaza into Israel and full "de-Nazification" and providing "security" like on other occupied territory. It wasn't hard to figure it out.
Since it doesn't look like collective Arabs are capable of any real fight except of jumping up and down like excited by the smell of food monkeys, continuous carpet bombing should provide the groundwork needed for lasting peace. After all one can't quarrel with nonexistent opponent.
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