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In Reply to: I listened to John Coltrane for the first time this weekend...... posted by benglert on December 02, 2002 at 06:51:34:
fueled by the horrible job Verve have been doing of dumbing down his catalog, and exemplified by many of the responses below.Coltrane recorded for Prestige in the 1950's. He was a drug addict for most of this period and erratic, but even more a problem for him was that his teeth were completely rotten and his ideas and technique were not yet fully formed. The Prestige recordings show the intonation problems mainly caused by his teeth, and the as yet not very fluid, often halting attempts to get his "sheets of sound" concept realized. Contrast the Prestige "I Want To Talk About You" with the Impulse Birdland version. Also, the Prestige/Weinstock arrangement gave Coltrane little artistic freedom, forcing him to do popular tunes of the day. Some Prestige recordings are good mainstream hardbop, but none show a fully formed artist.
In the 60's and 70's, Coltrane fans mostly ignored or dismissed the Prestige recordings, generally believing as I do that Coltrane really became himself starting with Giant Steps. This is the seminal tenor recording. MFSL reissued it in great sound. With Atlantic Coltrane was able to do his own stuff. Giant Steps is the milestone. Coltrane Jazz is primarily Giant Steps leftovers, and not as inspired. My Favorite Things you know, a better version of that tune is on the Impulse "Selflessness" album. Coltrane Plays The Blues on Atlantic is also essential.
Moving to Impulse, Coltrane had a complete free hand. The pop albums like Ballads are not representative, it was well known at the time that Coltrane had his Otto Link metal mouthpiece disastrously refaced, forcing him to a rubber Link temporarily until he could find a satisfactory replacement. Hence, he was not as facile for a time, Ballads is an example. Crescent is possibly the greatest Impulse record. A Love Supreme is good, but has been overblown if one looks purely at it's artistic merits. Good, but there's much better.
Some people despise later Coltrane, which is admittedly difficult as he was trying to break the shackles of the hardbop formula. It's not a starting point, but the greatest rewards with Coltrane generally lie with the later stuff, once you get there. Eventually try Sunship, Transition and Stellar Regions.
In my opinion, your next choice must be Giant Steps. After that, Crescent, followed by Live At Birdland, A Love Supreme, and Coltrane Plays The Blues.
Follow Ups:
I think you have some things out of order, but I may be wrong. Weren't the teeth more of a problem in the 60's? Isn't he using that rubber mouthpiece on Interstellar Space, one of his last albums?No matter. I would say the Prestige stuff is less consistently good than the Atlantic or Impulse stuff, and drugs were surely a factor in that. He wasn't a junkie ALL that time though, and you seem to forget that virtually all of Trane's colleagues at the time would have been junkies too. Still, there's great music spread over all that time and everybody has different favorites. The truth is, nobody can tell the original poster where to go next and guarantee that it's really where he wants to go.
Here's my rec: lots of good recs in this thread already. Get one or two from each time period (the ones named most in this thread are fine), figure out what you like, and go from there. MFT is OK, but there is MUCH better Trane out there. WARNING: Your time with other artists may suffer when you really start to get into Coltrane.
dh
Very well put. I am constantly amazed how forums turn into flame-fests because a newbie has expressed an interest in something, and the more experienced among us begin to argue---losing sight of what was asked in the first place. To even argue the relative merits of pre- vs. post-tertiary harmonic substituition Trane is just silly, given we're trying to help a guy who just discovered Trane this past weekend--as if the work of any individual negates the work of another---or even his own earlier work. Such agendas, yeesh.And for the more advanced Trane-o-philes, his bad tooth he had fixed in the 50s, the day before one of the great Miles sessions (Round about Midnight, Kinda Blue, I don't remember which).
Mouthpiece-wise, he used a TON of different ones, from an old Link Tone Master (used on most of the Prestige sides), to metal Selmers, to short-block rubber Selmers, to rubber Links, and altered Super Tone Mater Florida Links.
People like to rhapsodize about the significance of such things and their origins (e.g., "bad teeth"), but the reality is that Trane, like most musicians, was always looking for something different. Simple as that. Kinda like growing a moustache.
"Mouthpiece-wise, he used a TON of different ones, from an old Link Tone Master (used on most of the Prestige sides), to metal Selmers, to short-block rubber Selmers, to rubber
Links, and altered Super Tone Mater Florida Links. "Simply not true. On Tenor, Trane played the same metal Otto Link for ages. At the time, there was only one "Link" factory, there was no such thing as a "Florida" Link different from any other. He used a hard rubber Link - again, at the time, their only rubber model, once his main metal Link got trashed. Later he got another metal Link. He never, ever, used any Selmer mouthpiece on Tenor, the narrow bore of the Selmers is designed specifically for classical players, it's sound is unmistakable. The only jazz Tenor man who ever used a Selmer on tenor is Joe Henderson. On Soprano, Trane used a metal Selmer virtually exclusively. This is presumably because, at the time he started playing soprano, it was the only game in town.
Any musician will tell you that the single, most critical aspect to technique is the mouthpiece. Even changing to another of the same model, facing, and tip opening can be disastrous for a virtuoso. For the sax player, the mouthpiece is the single, greatest issue, when they find one that works for them, they hold on to it like it were a gift from heaven, because it just about is that.
By the way, real Trane-o-philes will know that Round About Midnight was recorded in 1955, and Kind Of Blue in 1959, so which one he had the teeth fixed before (not "tooth" as you wrongly say)cannot be both. It was actually well before Kind Of Blue, which is also obvious to the listener, Coltrane is still having intonation problems as well as executional issues on Round About Midnight, Kind Of Blue is clearly showing markedly superior playing.
As to what this all has to do with helping a guy get into Coltrane...well, that escaped you also, so let me reiterate it. It has to do with what are the masterpieces, and which are the steps on the learning curve. The Prestige stuff, particularly the earliest ones, are works of a gifted artist still struggling to get his instrument to do what he wanted, and to find his own voice. I don't recommend starting there, I recommend starting at Blue Train or, even better, Giant Steps, where we hear the beginnings of the fully matured Coltrane.
I'm not quite sure why the fixation on absolutes, particularly when erroneous, even more so since we're saying basically the same thing, with miniscule disageements about minor data.Now I remember why I stopped contributing to forums years ago, thanks very much.
Years ago I was hanging out with a very well known and great saxophone player who took me to a guy's apartment somewhere around 57th st. & 7th ave. He was going to try out a bunch of tenor necks at this guy's place (necks on saxes can make a huge difference). Around 15 minutes after we got there, Pharoah Sanders (who played with Trane often in Trane's later years) rings the bell. He has a bag with around 15 of Trane's old mouthpieces. Yes, I said AROUND 15. They were all old metal Links, all around 4's & 5's, not big mouthpieces as I'd always thought (although the old #'s are larger than modern equivalents). Like most saxophone players, Trane kept on buying and trying mouthpieces, always hoping to find perfection.
How many times he actually made at least a semi-lasting change, I have no idea.
Trane was endorsing Link mouthpieces in those days, appearing in ads. So of course, he probably had piles lying around. Yes, it's true that sax players are continually trying out mouthpieces, and since the loss of his 50's Link, Coltrane spent awhile trying to find one again. I'm surprised that it was a 4 or 5, I would have thought larger, but it would have been a 4* or 5*, and you are right, a 60's 5* is probably a 7* today. I once tried Dexter Gordon's Link backstage, he had a 60's 9** with a #5 reed, it was like blowing a tree trunk. Those guys had cast iron lungs, today, there's none of the younger players who could get a peep out of those mouthpieces.I had a pile of mouthpieces around in my time, Links, Wolf Tayne, Larsens, others. Like anyone else, they can come in handy when your embrochure goes south, as it does from time to time. I always played the Link, but when I was having problems, I went to the Berg Larsen which had a very different tone but was easier to blow through with.
Agree this has drifted seriously OT, but jeesh, what a friggin' GREAT discussion! Thanks to all who added their knowledge and opinions. WOW, my head's still spinning!
1. The teeth were fixed after he got off drugs, late 50's or so. The intonation during the 50's, particularly pre-Monk, is notoriously weak.2. I'm well aware there were many jazz junkies in the 50's. The point I made was that both his technique and his ideas were not yet all in place during the Prestige period, nor was he really doing the material he wanted to.
3. Trane's metal Link was refaced around 1962, the "Ballads" recording and a few others were the result. When the metal Link was returned, he couldn't use it, and then he had to find another he could get the same results with as before. The rubber Link is more forgiving and easier to blow, but you can clearly identify which recordings are with the rubber mouthpiece as the tone is different. Interstellar Space was done with a metal Otto Link. There were odd times in the last 2 years where he turned to the rubber Link again, speculation on my part is that his health was the main factor.
I agree that this has been an interesting discussion, regardless of the fact that it may not be very relevent for the poor newbie who just wants to know which Coltrane album to pick up next. (My vote: Blue Trane, Giant Steps and Live at Birdland--a nice overview.)But let me ask/contribute two cents on something: It's been said that "Trane's metal Link was refaced around 1962, the "Ballads" recording and a few others were the result." I've always had a hunch that the series of relatively conservative albums that followed the wild (and at the time poorly received) Village Vanguard stuff might have been a response to the harsh criticism that "Chasin' the Trane" and the like received on initial release. As most readers will know, critics were merciless, calling these performances "anti-jazz" and questioning whether this new style was some sort of joke on the audience. Trane took them surprisingly seriously, at least if we read interviews of the time at face value.
Thus, I've always wondered if the Ballads/Hartman/Duke records weren't a kind of retrenching, a pulling back from the edge in response to the pasting Trane was taking in the press. I should make it clear that even if this is true, it's not a knock on Trane: those records are very good, whatever the motivation for the change in direction. I'm just asking the opinion of the obviously well-learned posters here: was the harsh criticism of the Vanguard material a factor in the launching of a more conservative period in Trane's development, or was it really (as he said at the time) merely the result of ruining his favorite mouthpiece?
There exists audiotape of Trane (apparently in a radio or other kind of interview) saying these albums were the result of his bad luck with mouthpiece refacing. The same is stated in "Chasin The Trane," a pretty good but factually dubious and speculative book.There are other sources, however, especially those who were close to him, who said that was his "PR" explanation, rather than admitting to bowing to alleged label pressure to produce more accessible records. This alleged label pressure is the same modern jazz artists still get, i.e., "Give us some more commercially accessible stuff so we can continue to justify putting out your 'High Art' stuff too." Some good labels genuinely want to keep artists happy and productive, but they gotta sell records too.
Either way, that's my humble entry into this fray. Any other folks have more info?
Robert, gotta disagree with some of your points. While its true that Trane continually evolved, and some, like you, greatly prefer his later (more personally developed and innovative) Atlantic and Impulse recordings, NONE of the professional musicians I know (including myself) would "dismiss" the Prestige albums. "Bahia", "Kenny Burrell and John Coltrane", "Soul Junction", "Traneing In", "Standard Coltrane", "Settin' the Pace", "Lush Life", "The Believer" all contain some fantastic playing by Trane and others, which most jazz players would not want to be without. Want to miss Red Garland with Trane?I've never met a jazz musician who didn't think "Ballads" and "John Coltrane and Johnny Hartman" (both displaying Trane's gorgeous sound, whatever the mouthpiece was) were truly great albums, coincidentally or by design "accessible". Innovative? No. Adventurous? No. Superb music? Yes. "A Love Supreme" is widely considered to be a SEMINAL album, for the playing, compositions, spirituality, and concept.
Duke Ellington surely produced many more innovative albums than "Ellington '65" and "Ellington '66". But wow, did he transform pop tunes like "Moon River", Days of Wine and Roses", "More", "Never on Sunday", "I Want to Hold Your Hand" etc. Great music doesn't have to be innovative, and innovation is no guarantee of great music.
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Excellent post.However, I think that "starting" with the Prestige stuff--especially the quartet dates with Red Garland, is where one must begin in order to get through the Atlantic recordings and on down the slippery slope to the late Impulse records. I don't know how anyone could appreciate or understand "Live at the Village Vanguard Again" without starting with Prestige stuff and moving forward. It would be like reading the last 40 pages of Moby Dick and thinking that's all you need to understand Melville. Right?
Allan, there is for sure some value to the Prestige stuff. Traneing In, Soultrane, Black Pearls, Settin The Pace - all excellent, particularly the latter two. But Prestige viciously milked the outtakes and released tons of albums after he had made it big, Standard Coltrane, The Last Trane, and so on being not very good. Also, looking back on the Prestige/Miles stuff, I like the Cookin/Relaxin/Steamin/Workin sessions, but it is obvious that Coltrane was struggling to get his intonation and technique straight. So the Prestige stuff is often good, but in my opinion, if that were all there was of Coltrane, this stuff would be long forgotten. Dexter, Sonny Rollins, and plenty more tenor men could blow him off the bandstand in that era, on the nights Coltrane was awake enough on the bandstand to notice.To answer your analogy, if you want to start at the beginning, that's fine, just avoid most of the post-contract Prestige stuff and stick to the albums released at the time. Do you really want to read all of Melville's novels BEFORE Moby Dick? Maybe, but you would surely avoid the early ones that aren't very good, and concentrate on the good ones, that really show his talent in full bloom. Fully formed Coltrane really begins at Blue Train, and comes to complete fruition with Giant Steps.
"Dexter, Sonny Rollins, and plenty more tenor men could blow him off the bandstand in that era, on the nights Coltrane was awake enough on the bandstand to notice."
I'd have to agree with the pro-Prestige camp. I've been listening to Coltrane recordings for more than 20 years, from his Miles Davis collaborations to his "advanced" recordings in his late Impulse period. While critics typically favor his last work as his most innovative, I believe their stance reflects a critical prejudice held over from romantic tastes formed in the 19th century: that is, an artist's most important work must break from tradition and establish a distinct voice in order to be regarded as "great."Funny, but it seems that the Prestige recordings have held up best over time, particularly those recorded AFTER Coltrane's celebrated collaboration with Monk; I'd argue that his 5 Spot days with the pianist mark his true transition from a quality hard-bop tenor to an artist whose command of rhythm and melodic variation -- and for sheer emotional impact -- set him apart as something special. Rollins may have been more inventive, and Gordon more wry, but Coltrane found a lyricism that few had equalled before or have reached since.
The Atlantic recordings? Many beauties here, particularly the oft-neglected Plays the Blues. But some of the material, such as the famed Giant Steps, can feel a bit self-conscious, a little too much like difficult exercises for advanced saxophone players.
Impulse? Again, there are gems; I'm particularly fond of the the Johnny Hartman and Ellington albums, and the justly-praised Live at Birdland. But when you get into Sun Ship and similar recordings, look (or listen) to what has happened to Coltrane's playing. Dynamics? Not much -- most of the music is played at one unvarying and very intense level, without the dramatic tension and release that comes by moving among the full sonic range, whisper to a scream. Rhythm? Elvin Jones does his damnedest, but Coltrane's playing feels monolithic: rigid and unmoving. Melodic imagination? If you hear it here, God bless you.
To some minds, Coltrane's best Prestige recordings weren't enough to completely distinguish him from the many excellent tenor saxophonists playing in the late '50s. But damn, put on Traning In or Settin' the Pace, and you'll hear an imaginative, engaging music of an intensity and lyrical strength that remains unmatched.
Yes, Monk was *The* turning point.I tend to gravitate around Trane's Impulse recordings, along with "Ole'" and his work with Miles after he returned from that critical sojourn with Monk. Monk was an inspirational master of space, time, and harmonics. During his time with Monk, Trane rid himself of various encumberances and devoted himself to a musical and spiritual quest that he pursued for the last decade of his life.
....."blow him off the bandstand"?! I seriously doubt if Dexter and Sonny share your views, not to mention Miles, who complained about the length of Trane's solos, but sure as hell NOT his technique or intonation problems. Though I'm by no means advocating this, I would also point out that Bird played stoned out of his brains many times. Sometimes this was an obvious detriment, other times the playing was somehow still technically masterful, extremely soulful, and innovative to the bone.Robert, I'm not claiming this was Trane's "best". "Ragtime", "Tango", "Greeting Prelude" may not be Stravinsky's "best" either, but its still GREAT MUSIC, and most composers would give their ass to be able to write as well. If I went to the Vanguard tonight and heard somebody playing as well as Trane did on those sessions I'd be talking about the fantastic player I just heard.
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