|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
Last night I went to see a wonderful young Austrian pianist, Gerda Struhal perfrom at the Austrian Embassy and the sound she produced with the Bosendorfer was mind-blowing. My wife, who is an amateur pianist agreed. When we got home she said she didn't want to play the piano at home anymore. We go to a lot of classical concerts on a regular basis, but I don't recall being quite this enamoured with the sound of a piano before. It helped that this pianist was very good indeed. Her rendition of the Chopin Preludes was nothing short of fantastic. Quite a contrast from Jeffrey Kahane, whom we went to see last Sunday and actually left during intermission because he was so, so bad. This guy couldn't play Faure to save his life.To make matters worse, he attempted to play the evocative Albeniz Iberia, which almost prompted me to yell out, "get off the stage, you suck". Very disappointing. Contrastingly, Gerda Struhal is much less known than Kahane, but her Haydn sonata had the right lightness of touch, her Brahms Op. 119 was full of passion and depth, and her Chopin, as I said was powerful and moving.Luckily for me, the Ms. Struhal had brought along a few copies of her CD of the Preludes, recorded on some obscure label called Gramolo. I am listening to that CD right now and the recording of the piano sound is also spectacular. The finale of the Preludes is earth-shattering. the recording is just a tad bit forward sounding, but the full dynamic range of the piano is captured brilliantly. Those bass notes seem to be emanating from the deepest chasms of the earth. This might become my reference disc for the piano sound.
With Steinway's dominating the concert scene, I am now disappointed that there aren't more Bosendorfers being used in concert venues. I was just in awe of that Bosendorfer sound last night.
Follow Ups:
Robert Silverman recorded the Beethoven Piano Sonata's cycle on a Bosendorfer Reproducing Piano.Very different sound - but highly recommended.
In Harvey Sachs' book on Arture Rubinstein, the subject of pianos came up now and then.Early in his career Rubinstein played pretty much what was available. He never seemed to be loyal to any maker, but Bechstein pianos seemed to be his favorites. I think they even sponsored him at some point. He seemed to settle on Steinway later in life, almost by default. There were quotes in the book of him compaining about some Steinway he played here or there, but he also praised others. He always seemed happy with a Bechstein.
I think he judged each piano individually. He seemed more interested in the feel of the keyboard than sound.The first recording I ever heard of a Bosendorfer was the Frager on Telarc. I still have the LP my dad bought long ago. We were awed by the power, but now I think it sounds rather congested and fuzzy and really isn't my favorite piano recording.
My dad, an amature pianist, has always loved Steinway.
...just kidding!
f
About 20 years ago, I had a conversation with someone who told me a story about the immortal Vladimir Horowitz in rehearsals repeatedly knocking a just-purchased Bosendorfer ($$$) piano out of tune during his thunderous crescendos, so the old Steinway was brought in for the remainder of the rehearsals, with nary a problem. The Steinway ended up being used for the concerts.
...exactly why I hold him in such esteem, even if current opinion disregards him as some kind of pop idol.
I think of that cadenza late in the opening movement of the Rachmaninoff Concerto 3... Horowitz saves the "thunder" for the very end, and plasters the listener to the back wall... Where other pianists time the crescendo too early, and end up running out of steam... (I realize the "running out of steam" often comes from the loud "alternative" cadenza- I do prefer the original "light" cadenza, which Horowitz happened to use.)
I'm listening to a live recording of Horowitz playing Rachmaninov's second piano sonata right now, and although I've had the recording for a long time it continues to amaze me. Other recordings of the sonata had left me cold, but Horowitz reintroduced me to it. Also on the disc is an incredible recording of Scriabin's sonata no.5 (great piece), made in 1976 when Horowitz was in his seventies. That a man of his age could still have such immense control, such perfect articulation - particularly after years of self doubt - is nothing short of a miracle.
Any new piano takes time to settle in. It takes about 6 months.
If the Steinway were new, It would have been the same.
In fact I saw Pianist Richard Goode destroy a brand new
Steinway at a residence dedication party, I mean broken hammers,
besides out of tune. The tuner was there and said it was totally expected.
nt
dh
Are you referencing her performance at the Austrian (?) Embassy ?I read a very positive review of the concert in the Washington Post. Unfortunately, I didn't see any advance notice of the show. Wondering where you found out about it? As for Kahane, I did see the ad for the show, which seemed rather schmaltzy and "show-biz"in nature, "classical music for those who don't really like classical music." Glad I gave it a pass. Any idea if Ms. Stuhal will make a return appearance in ther DC area? or elsewhere for that matter?
I've attended other events at the Austrian Embassy and I got an email from them regarding Gerda Struhal. Somehow, I missed the review on the Post about that performance - glad to hear they liked it too. This was her first performance in DC, but unfortunately she doesn't have any immediate plans to return. I am talking to a couple of arts organizations in town to see if a return visit can be planned and sponsored.Kahane was really a disappointment - you were lucky you missed him. I've seen him before and he wasn't that bad. Perhaps he should stay away from the French repertoire.
Pianos are as different from one to another as any instrument. This makes them subject to careful choice for a particular kind of music. At Steinways on 57th NYC and going from one to the adjacent, I tried every B in stock and every one had a different emphasis- some brighter some darker, some with a bass emphasis, etc. There were B's that would be better for Bach or Mozart or Chopin or Prokofiev or jazz or chamber music and then some that would be more generic and suit a lot of styles. But, aren't generic, consistent things the opposite of artistic choice?The Japanese pianos seem more consistent one to another but therefore not as interesting as a potential pallette of sounds. Andre Watts played Yamahas for several years and these were sometimes mentioned in reviews as detracting from the performance.
With Bosendorfer, generally tend to be a slightly brighter than Steinway, concentrating on an articulate sound with a very good balance top to bottom. There have been a number of Bosendorfer exponents since 1828. How about:
Franz Schubert Frédéric Chopin Anton Bruckner Richard Wagner Franz Liszt Carl Czerny Johann Strauß-Sohn Johannes Brahms Hugo Wolf Franz Lehár Gustav Mahler Anton Rubinstein Ferruccio Busoni Arnold Schönberg Richard Strauss Alban Berg Anton von Webern Ernst Krenek Gottfried von Einem Herbert von Karajan Wilhelm Backhaus Leonard Bernstein Alfred Brendel Gerhard Oppitz Paul Badura-Skoda Friedrich Cerha Oscar Peterson Friedrich Gulda András Schiff André Previn
I personally think that the Hamburg Steinway C (7'6")is the best all-rounder. Of course these are $XXX,XXX.One of the best examples of the musical importance of piano choices was the Levin/ Hogwood 5 Beethoven concerti on original period pianos. The timbre in emsemble with other period instruments is very convincing.
Too bad about your Jeffry Kahane experience. I heard him a couple of years ago in Mozart concerti and it was quite enjoyable. Kahane placed the piano with his back to audience to conduct and the strings players were all standing (except the cellist and one expecting violinist).
Cheers,
Bambi B
"'There was also the added problem of the piano,' says Peter. 'Alfred Brendel will only play a Steinway. So, when the Turner Sims Bosendorfer grand was being replaced two years ago, it was decided to opt for a new Steinway, and the piano was chosen by one of the country's most sought-after piano technicians with pianists like Brendel very much in mind. We're pleased that Mr Brendel thought that we had made a good choice.'
SE,Interesting. I simply copied the list of Bosendorferists from their web site, but certainly I have never seen Brendel playing anything but a Steinway and even his old Vox recordings mention the Steinways too.
Who is "Peter" that you're quoting in your post?
Cheers,
Bambi B
I can't find my vinyl copy now but I think Paul McCartney played a Bosendorfer during the Let It Be sessions. But I could be wrong.
Craig
digital is for computers & telephones NOT MUSIC
I can't find my vinyl copy now but I think Paul McCartney played a Bosendorfer during the Let It Be sessions. But I could be wrong.
Craig
digital is for computers & telephones NOT MUSIC
This is another manifestation of the kinky audiophilism buttered by music related jargonism. If you look at the idiosyncrasies piano sounds and view it form 5000 feet above then… what the really differents it makes? No wonder that Mr. Sternway was complaining about Rachmaninoff because he was not able to use Rachmaninoff in marketing purposed: Rachmaninoff reputedly just did not give a damn about pianos but was concern about the result of interaction between a person and piano.…I know a number of table tennis players who instead of playing tennis spent all time just to re-glue the rubbers on their paddles….
"No wonder that Mr. Sternway was complaining about Rachmaninoff because he was not able to use Rachmaninoff in marketing purposed: Rachmaninoff reputedly just did not give a damn about pianos but was concern about the result of interaction between a person and piano."If you played the instrument, you would understand that EVERY piano is different. Several makers build great, good, and mediocre pianos. Maybe Rocky was just honest enough not to want to endorse any single maker.
It is comical that you are willing to educate me that the instrument sound different: let assume that I know what you know … and find it not interesting. If you really familiar with the roots, reasons and the sources of music then you might understand where I was coming from and why the expressive methods of musicality important only to express “an intellectualism” at the AA’s pseudo-musical forum.
I have to go make music now. Bills to pay, ya know.
dh
Are there any pianist or piano discussion groups around in the internet?
There is this onehttp://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi
Unfortunatly it is populated by too many dealers and others with an agenda. It also too deeply into minutia (sp?) Kind of like audiophools
that focus on which tube sounds best the 12ax7 with silver pins or gold pins while completely ignoring the room acoustics. Kind of like this thread praising the Bosendorfer (a fine piano) but ignoring the fact that the recording engineer and pianist have alot more influence than the name stenciled on the fallboard.
RegardsSteve
Regards
Well, I've played on a few Bosendorfers and a couple of Steinway grands, and probably a whole bunch of others. Still, I prefer the 'feel' of a Steinway - its 'touch' (not considering the sound). Bechstein is not available in my part of the world but an overseas friend that has one has been pushing me to get an old one and spruce it up - saying that it would sound much better than any modern piano...hmm...
Hey Tool....I didn't know you were a player. I bought myself a Yamaha grand (c2) a year ago and have been working at it ever since. I also liked the Steinway best, but couldn't afford it. The Yamaha action felt more like the Steinway than anything else I tried, very quick and light.
Being the Mozart junkie that I am I need quick and light to have any chance at his piano Sonatas. I've been working on K331 lately. The opening movement theme and variations is just spectacular.Regards
oh.. I hadn't been playin' for .. uh...10 years? I did touch it about 5 months ago when an ex colleague egged me to accompany him (he's an amateur violinist). Hopelessly out of touch *blush*I think I played that Yamaha before - anyway, there's a Yamaha showroom over in my part of the world and quite free access to the public too.
I had been playing Yamahas for .. err.. 8 years? Varying quality, but that ain't a fair statement as the pianos are all in different conditions.
Once you hear the highs, you know you can spot a Yamaha :) They do not sound so nice with Liszt!
Very much will like to hear and 'feel' a Bechstein
An interesting group of people talking about all facets of piano - composition, harmonic development, new pieces, etc. I've been a member for a while now, but don't visit quite as much as I used to. There's even a section where you can pdf versions of sheet music of the piece of the month.
A little on the brighter side but rich in the low mids. A lot of europeans like em.
So is Cecil!!I heard from someone who was involved with Hat Hut that when he played Fat Tuesdays in NYC for the recording of It Is In The Brewing Luminous, Hat Hut was charged for the tickets and drinks that the table which had to be removed in order to fit the Bosendorfer would have earned.
there's a tremendous amount of piano politics going on unseen...steinway through their power has signed on as the 'official piano' of just about every major performance venue and also has endorsement deals with individual artists so they are not free to choose which instrument they'll perform on if they want to play at a hall...from what i've heard the few times artists have tried to buck the establishment it's affected their booking...btw, steinway is really a mass market instrument (and i'm referring to the u.s. version, the german is a differnt company) although i don't remember the production figures and the other makers mentioned are more boutique producers that not only offer a more individual sound but a better built instrument as well (i'm speaking of contemporary pianos here, not ones built in the first part of the century)...imho
msk
Yes, the dear old Bosendorfer Imperial Grand, deep deep bass.This company has more respect from me for an additional reason the kept making Viennese Action painos as well as DA's, right up to WW1. Backhaus preferred to perform on one of the VA's if he could.
OTOH I was told the other day that Madam Bechstein funded Hitler from really early on. Part of the Winifried Wagner set. And wasn't Winifried English?
No I am not going to try to find and burn a Bechstein OK! I bet there aren't too many at the Israel Phil's headquarters though.
timbo
Most jazz pianists I know have Bosendorfers at home.Personally, I like their sound better than Steinway.
Any pianist will tell you that all pianos sound a little different just like all acoustic string instruments sound a little different. Because they are hand made and use organic materials which very from tree to tree.Oscar Peterson prefers to use a Bosendorfer, Ahmad Jamal prefers the STeinway. There is a cut on Jamal's "Nature" entitled "Chaperon" where Jamal found a particularly awesome sounding Steinway while the group was touring France. They brought in the recording gear and Jamal made something up on the spot simply to capture the sound of this instrument-in particular, it's bass strings. The bass notes on this cut sound like this piano is the size of a house. While I never heard it live, I've heard a lot of STeinways and Bosendorfers live and on recordings and I would bet this particular Steinway could hold its own against a lot of Bosendorfers out there.
The Hamburg Steinways (which I would guess this one was) are considered to be better sounding than the American made Steinways because of the hard woods from the Black Forest used in their manufacture.
Once again, the original woods use and how the piano's wood ages over time is what gives each piano it's own particular sound. These aspects are just as critical to a piano's ultimate sound over time than the particular manufacturer.
My 2 cents.
Steve
Just the other way round.
Most recordings that I have where a Bosendorfer are used seem on the dark side of musicality.
And remember they are different models of Steinways.
Michel Petrucciani refused to play anything else than Steinways.
I remember in 1997 at the North Sea Jazz Festival which is sponsored by Yamaha, Michel decided to play on using a Steinway.
Yamaha made him cover the name on the piano with masking tape.
Every time I watch the video of this concert it is just so funny
as the banner on the stage mention the Yamaha sponsorship, yet
you can see the masking of the name Steinway on Michel piano.
By the way some of the Michel Petrucciani recordings on the Dreyfuss label are just extraordinary.
Maybe this is why I like Steinways so much.
Here's a CD containing digital samples of an actual 9' Bosendorfer. There's a "Play Demo" feature that is really something. Take this CD, some basic "music sequencer" program such as Cakewalk, and you can compose, record, modify and playback -- in SOTA Bosendorfer sound -- all on the hard drive of your computer. Burn a CD, set up a basic web page, and you can compete with the Bigs ;-)
cheers,
Here's a terrific recording that really captures the qualities of the instrument:
If anyone is interested in more Chopin on a Bosendorfer check out Garrick Ohlsson traversal of all of Chopins music. No small scale stuff, effeminate stuff there! For general relaxing recitals on a Bosendorfer i have enjoyed Carol Rosenberger's CD's from Delos.Anyone want to start a list of performers who typically use a Bosendorfer?
Hi Newbee, we had Carol Rosenberger's "Water Music" and
"Per chance to dream" if my memory is correct. Excellent recordings.
They got a lot of play time here years ago along with the Frager.
They seem to be missing now with the help of younger family members.
Thanks for that link, must go look for it now. The following is from Bosendorfer's website, no wonder the bass notes sounded so fantastic. This is the same piano used in her CD. The keyboard has 97 keys."It is the only concert grand in the world to have nine sub-bass notes, down to bottom C, giving it a full eight octave compass keyboard. These extra notes enable some compositions to be accurately performed, which were originally scored with lower notes, by composers such as Bartók, Debussy, Ravel and Busoni. Special construction features have a very positive influence on the overtones produced when the piano is played, and helps to create the maximum range of both power and volume, and allows the smallest subtle variations in sound to be heard, across the whole range of the piano."
Cant beat the big B. My oldest daughter used one daily on campus near L.A. She totally loved it.
She found daily access to one now where she studies in Paris and she is in heaven. She is not
likely to ever come home unless I buy one. Any donations?
BTW the Frager recording is excellent
.....what you should do is, take out a 2nd mortgage and buy the Imperial Grand Bosendorfer with their digital reproducer option, that way you can tell your daughter to come home and she will, and what's more you can tell her to record all of her favorite pieces on it, so when she leaves you can have a player piano version of your daughter still there in the house with you ;)
Im back. I didnt realize their were so many models.
Ill have to ask her which model it is. I know it has
the extra keys. At one time when she was very young.
we had a 1907 Weber Aeolian Grand player piano. I surely
miss it.It went with 300 rolls. It was that, or a new house.
.
Hmm! Should I get the Ferrari or the Bosendorfer?!?
.
No system can compare with the sound of the real thing.
Also a much better investment High end audio is the worst investment money wise. Especially interconnects and cables.
So from Monday I am taking double bass lessons and start looking for a woman that can play the piano and sing, that would be the ultimate!!
well, not so fast..pianos, like hifi, need a really well treated or well dimensioned room to sound their best.
just like the big speaker-big room/small speaker-small room 'rule', a big piano in a small room is quite disasterous - despite being the 'real thing'.
.....but NOT the group buy that you would normally think of, where you get a bunch of people together in hopes of getting a group discount.I mean something more like when several people pool their money and buy a small airplane, and rotate their usage of it.
You could get 4 people together to buy a Bosendorfer 290, making sure all of the people live in the same locale, and each would get it for 3 months out of the year! The rest of the time, if they wanted to play it or hear it, they could call up their buddy and say "hey can my wife and I stop over tonight? We'd like to play the Bosendorfer..." heheheh
With the digital player-piano option, it would almost be worth it, at least for the deep-pocketed folks!!
Your idea interests me. Have you, however, heard of a little known style called "rock n roll"? The practitioners of this genre routinely bang the piano hard, stomp it with there feet (shoes not removed) and generally abuse it maximally in order to obtain the ellusive "I got [sic] to feel my music, dude" effect.
.....like "fingers *only* on the keys, please!!"
.
I love that stuff, and so far my favorite is the lush/dramatic treatment given it by Helene Grimaud. Most on this board don't like her version as well, but I love it! hehehSo tell me, does Fraulein Struhal have any Brahms I can pick up? I will of course go now and look on the Webbbbbbbb----
Mike,As far as I know that is the only recording she has made (she's still young), but unfortunately it only contains only Chopin's Preludes and Scherzo No. 4 Op. 54, and Scriabin's Sonata no. 2, alas no Brahms. I have never seen that label in this country, therefore it might take some work to locate it. There is no website information on the CD case.
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: