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In Reply to: Absurd : All real products have limitiations posted by snaggs on April 29, 2003 at 00:15:31:
"DSD achieves the maximum fidelity given the limitations. DVD-A can only achieve 24/96 on all channels. DSD achieves a 2/1 efficiency over PCM by the use of its noise-shaping. This achieves better than PCM 192/24 within the audible band, and less outside the audible band. Certainly much better than 24/96."I do not agree with the "limitations" put forth by Sony.
DSD does NOT achieve better fidelity than PCM 24/192 within the audible band, it achieves LESS fidelity. That is my beef with it.
If the "limitations given" are having full 5.1/6.1/7.1 rigs with multichannel surround, I do think DSD wins this game. But I could give a crap about multichannel; it's expensive enough to get 2 killer channels, there are very few who can afford maximum fidelity across 6 channels.
That's why I like 24/192 LPCM. Maximum fidelity for 2 channel folk, 24/96 for everyone into multichannel. Believe me, 24/96 is PLENTY good for multichannel, I seriously doubt your or I will have a rig that could even take full advantage of 6 channels of 24/96 in the near future.
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I crashed my CBR1000 a couple of years ago, and havn't been "allowed" to ride since. Family + Wife have chilled a bit since, so I think I can get away with being a weekend rider, so no point getting anything practical, though I don't want a Ducati which puts my wrists down near my feet!
As comfy as a Duc gets, at least ;)Seriously, I have ridden minde 4+ hours with no issues. Rode it to a wedding 2 hours away in a suit and wingtips once..
You should check 'em out, especially now that they're injected (mine is carb'd), and the motors have been upped in power... They are lots of fun, the perfect combination between sportbike (the old superbike frame, old desmodue torquey motor) and hooligan (more upright stance, naked).
My first question.1) How is DSD not better than 192/24 ? It has less ringing, wider bandwidth and a much higher sampling rate. We know that until PCM 384, the sampling rate isn't high enough, regardless of bitrate. Infact, it has been proven, that for most commercial pop music releases, no more than -45 dB S/N is neccesary, that equates to only 9-bit, even CD has well in excess of the dynamic range for most recordings.
2) Even if we for the sake of argument agree that 192/24 is at least as good as, if not better than DSD overall. What relevance is this when we havn't had a single commercial 192/24 release ? Theyre all 96/24 as the mainstream public want multi-channel, its the only way to sell a new format to Joe Blow, he can hear shit (doesn't matter what it is) coming out his rear speakers and he can say, CD doesn't do that. Yes you will get the occasional audiophile 192/24 release in the future (maybe not ?). Yes you can record on DVD-A at 192/24, which really is brilliant for live recordings. However, you don't loose this ability if SACD takes over DVD-A as the commercial release medium.
MiniDisc never really took off as a release medium outside Japan, but who cares ? I have a recorder and couldn't care two hoots, I can still record my radio shows. Recordable mediums don't have the same success criteria as a playback only. For this reason, DVD-A will never die. It will always be around for home enthusiasts and small backyard recording labels.
I just want it to die for the majors, as Stereo and Watermark Free recordings are not part of its future. IF there was a media release tommorow, that even just stereo 96/24 was mandated, and audible watermarking scrapped, I'd jump on board with both formats. Whilst I'd prefer my Neil Young on DSD, as you say, 24/96 is plenty good enough. Not perfect, but I could live with it, especially considering how CD has improved. However, given SACD exists, and provides the best quality overall, I want it to succeed. I can still have DVD-A as a recording medium (or DVD-A LPCM), but at least when I buy my disks I know that the worst case scenario is still ok, stereo for me even if the 5.1 is ping-pong and watermark free.
1) DSD does not have less ringing than PCM @ 24/192K, contrary to your assertions. Clearly DSD has substantial ringing:http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/surround2002/technology/page_07.shtml
In terms of qty of ringing, even 24/96K has less ringing although response on transients is slower.
2) The Eagles "Hotel California"
Neil Young "Harvest"
The Doobie Brothers "The Captain and Me"
Linda Ronstadt "What's New"
Stravinsky Firebird Suite / Ravel Bolero (AIX Records)Those are off the top of my head, others also exist.
So which of these would you like to discuss?
What is Harvest like on DVD-A ? Sorry for asking, but is it Watermarked ? Are the rest of his titles coming out 192/24 ?As for SACD having less ringing, the credibility difference between a web blog and a paper submitted by academics working for philips to the AES are on substantially different levels.
Perhaps you should do a little homework on who the principal producer of the study was.Also, could you tell me Craig fudged the oscilloscope tracings?
As far as Philips' papers go, it's hardly unbiased material.
Is Harvest watermarked? I don't know, but it is highly likely.
Do I care? Nope. The material has never sounded better.
and hear a difference? Please see Page 19 in this PDF:http://www.meridian-audio.com/w_paper/Coding2.PDF
When you say no commercial records at 192/24, do any of these meet the criteria?
http://www.dvd-a.dk/start.php?page=P2&format=1&Filter=Recommended2ch&Menu=Recommended stereo recordings
I didn't realise Harvest was 192/24. That really is good.As for the PDF very interesting, and funnily enough confirms that DSD's dynamic range of 120db is enough! They also talk about how sensible and beneficial noisehaping is to digital audio, also confirming DSD's strategy in this regard.
Just goes to show that the two camps arn't so far apart really. I bet Meridian could do a ripper SACD player. As for whether people can hear the difference between 96/24 and either 192/24, 384/24 or DSD, well theres few people who havn't been able to hear the difference.
I content that Merdian are correct within the scope of their research, except with regards to the sample rate. It has since been shown that higher sample rates are needed to represent the analog waveform in real implementations. On the whole, you will see that there is nothing in the Meridian paper is really at odds with the DSD paper. Both are good science.
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