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In Reply to: High-end manufacturers must have both AUDIO and VIDEO know-how to enter the DVD-A market posted by DVDAphile on April 28, 2003 at 17:05:11:
Yes, SACDs are exploding, cracking, and shattering everywhere. I was waiting for this cheap hit...It's one pressing plant, and one particular formulation, moron.
Not all SACDs, not all Hybrids, and not even all Hybrids from Crest.SACDs are DVD 4.7's, and even you should recognize that there's no difference, inherently, between the CONSTRUCTION of SACDs and DVD-As.
It's all DVD media, champ. Crest presses DVD-A's, too. It isn't an SACD problem, it's a media issue that'll effect both the Axis and the Allies. Just wait until olefine DVD-A's get produced. You'll be putting your foot in your mouth.
Which is fortunate, since I'd like to put mine through your face.
Follow Ups:
You know full well the same happens in reverse on the hi-way. No need to defend SACD continually. You should also very well know that there are many on the hi-way that will tolerate nothing but positive comments on SACD. It is refreshing to see the discussion on the hi-way of this problem. At least heads are out of the sand. I see no one from the audiobahn over on the hiway crowing about the disc problems and that would be easy to do. I am sure it can be readily and easily dealt with and is not a long term problem.More problematic is the SACD specs. The discs and hardware seem to be much more finicky and to fine tolerances than CD or even DVD. The discs need to be handled very carefully and there have been constant issues with both Sony and Phillips hardware. Marantz seems to have dodged the buggy hardware issue but you must admit, with technology similar to CD, ie. same transports, there have been way more problems with hardware than one would think for a technology that is not brand new. This leads one to surmise that the smaller pits and tighter lazer beam focusing are the problems. This seems to create more problems with dust, dirt and the general handling of the discs that CD has not experienced. Anyway, you should be commended for your fine work in this matter and I view you as one of the few people who knowledgeably comment on both formats without picking favourites. Without getting into a Michi love fest, your view comes with much more respect than many other more partisan in nature. Regards,
...they're kind of embarrassing actually. But it's the hate-fests i'm not too partial to.There are stupid things said on both sides... I mean, I have to watch my back over here, because if I'm not negative enough, I may get static over there when I go back. :)
I feel like I'm working for the mafia and the FBI at the same time. :)
It can be a pretty funny (but serious) issue getting a lot of air play on multiple forums.Of course, DVDAphile often reminds me of that el-Shahif (sp?) character who played the role of Iraqi minister of (dis)information....
Whats this person's problem? Poor upbringing or just sexually frustrated individual?> Which is fortunate, since I'd like to put mine through your face.
SEXUALLY FRUSTATED....CRETIN !
I've dyed blue hair and smoke clove cigarettes. This means I'm an 'angry youth'.As far as sexual frustration goes? Well, no comment on that, but my Ryan Adams SACD is almost as good to look at as it is to listen to.
ahem.
Just wondering, blue hair + japanese.... its a long shot.. but had to ask. Japanese music is something I've just been getting into.Daniel.
But on a few suggestions, I think i'm going to check that out.
I am gray haired ( if any ) with a big fat belly...AndI like Mozart...Sounds too good to be true ?
For the rest ? Long long time ago....
But, Baby, I am a man*...How stupid can they be ?
right here in the middle of the Audiobahn... Geez, that's not allowed.
:))Best
Eric
Comment ca va Eric ?
Yes an moment that will last an life long....
And we can make beautiful music together.
...well......At least play it back.
:)
Just last night you were flaming the place inside out, and today you're on a honeymoon with a vinyl-perfectionist Frenchman..
How unpredictible can you get? :))Best
Eric
I honestly don't stay angry long.
er... maybe not...
:)
The perfect match for you...
is a word that goes together well..
How about this for a starter...if your name is...Michelle...
Salut l'ami.. la carpe et le lapin?Things are ok here, but business is in slow motion right now.
- Do you have A la Vie A la Mort SACD yet?
Best
Eric
PS I enjoyed the EMI DVD-A Classics. I'll post a short review.
Yes very bad buisness...Is the J.H. already out ? But I do not think that I will buy it...in fact I never did buy one of his record even if some of his songs were not bad at all----
P.
Yes JH's out, a double album (I haven't seen it yet, but it's advertised now). It might be good, but it might be very bad also, many different songwriters were involved. I only have some of his old songs.Cheers
Eric
Can believe that....I will have a listen on Amazon for good old Johnny....And on France Inter I may have already hear some of his new songs...
Salut,Patrick
...Not all of us hide behind unregistered monikers.
The same type of idiots who could not tell the difference between the Iraqi National Museum and the Ministry of Oil Affairs, it seems. I have no problem choosing this side of the fence...
...as I did to DSOTM in HiRez.
you're in one of your 'zones' right now and it's not pretty.Thanks, Chris
Michi,The problem is that it's a highly visible title and I have seen reports that this is NOT limited to the DSoTM release. Another reported title is the Police's Singles title. Neither of my copies of these discs are problematic to date, but I haven't checked the pressing plant they came from.
Also, you have made a comment here, that has no supporting evidence....
"It isn't an SACD problem, it's a media issue that'll effect both the Axis and the Allies. Just wait until olefine DVD-A's get produced. You'll be putting your foot in your mouth."
Bonding techniques for hybrid SACD are different from the proposed DVD flipper. Until hybrid DVD-As hit the market, what you've typed is nothing more or less than idle speculation.
Regards,
John Kotches
Sleeping with the enemy?This still is NOT SOMETHING THAT IS INHERENT TO THE SACD FORMAT.
IT HAS TO DO WITH A PLASTIC USED AT ONE PRESSING PLANT.
Try this sometime. Look at DVDs and hybrid SACDs. The glue does not go to the center, and there is a gap. This is the "BONDING" you talked about.
These cracks are forming where there is none of this glue. So how can it have anything to do with BONDING DIFFERENCES?
It has to do with the CHOICE OF PLASTICS BY ONE PRESSING PLANT.
"CRACKS" ARE NOT INHERENT TO THE SACD FORMAT.
But as you said, things are backwards here. And what you say becomes truth simply because your DVD-A THUGS are poised in the shadows ready to hit any "auslanders" with a Louisville Slugger because they don't talk the talk and walk the walk.
This is religion.
Michi,You're throwing a lot of broad commentary here that is unsupported and (at best) highly misguided.
I buy recordings on whatever hi-rez option is available, although my format of preference is decidedly DVD-Audio.
That's my pragmatic approach to improving the sonics of my music collection.
Regards,
John Kotches
With the splitting of the forums, it was kind of inevitable though, wasn't it?So, If I get told "You're on THAT side! Get out of here!", or pick up that notion, I get defensive.
The problem is, you've got to be completely ANTI SACD around here to be able to criticise any *specific* shortcoming in DVD-A, even if it is minutia.
It's this bi-partisan, all or nothing mentality that I see cast on *me* when I come in here that puts me on the defensive when someone says something like "SACDs CRACK." ...
That's like saying "Audio equipment gets hot!" ... That's right. Some of it does.
the boards were split because of the constant harping between "camps". I don't go onto the hi-rez board and bitch about anti-DVD-A comments, its not worth the trouble. But if I did, I would expect that the usual suspects would jump all over me. You basically have to view the forum you are in with respect. I post on the hi-way and I try to be very careful what I post. It is not my job to try and stamp out any anti-DVD-A comments. It's bound to happen so let it be. Take the analogy that you have walked into a Republican convention as a Democrat and started slagging everyone that said anything anti-democrat. How do you think you'll be received? Its not worth the energy. So try to chill and realize that there will be anti-SACD comments here and pro-DVD-A commentary. That's how its structured. It will not change.
...Because as far as this stuff goes, I'm not the equivalent of a "democrat".If I were a moderate at a Republican convention, I'd likely say, "Well, I like this this and this, but I don't agree wiith this."
It's you guys who labeled me "democrat", "outsider", "SACD-dedicate."
That isn't the truth. But it's a "You're completely for us, or completely against us!" mentality.
Saying that *all* SACDs crack is just dumb. If someone said, perhaps, on Hirez, that *all* DVD-A's don't have dedicated stereo, that'd be dumb, too.
They don't all have stereo, only some do. Am I dumb ?:)
n/t
The only reason you think it was inappropriate or 'hysterical' of me to outline which pressings weren't cracking was because it gave you a chance to attack me because I don't rub against DVD-A displays in stores and dare touch the 'tainted format'.If it was DVD-A that had a problem like this, (and it could happen), you'd be all roses.
"RETURN defective items" ... What, for another defective item?
No, no, I understand. If it's DVD-A, it's golden, if it's SACD, it's fecal.
My posting specifying which discs were and were not defective was perfectly reasonable.
You classifying *ALL* sacd's as "crackers" was propaganda.
But, this is a war. So I guess all is fair. So it's fair for you to smear me because I *DARED* post something fucking informative about the format that your Jihad rages against, it's fair for me to say that I hope that your Warners' "Crash! Bang! Boom!" DVD-A develops a fracture while it's spinning, and shatters in your face and blinds you while you're listening to sound-effects whirl about your head amidst a sea of "hard hittin' bass".
or something for my side of the war? 'Cause I *really* suck at that kinda stuff. SACD good. DVD-A good. 8-track bad. (Hey, there isn't an 8-track forum here somewhere is there?) Oh ****, I just offended somebody in the vintage forum ;)
No offense, really. I just wonder why I am on the receiving end of such harsh criticism of yours... I would call this "hysterical" if I may... Your postings are okay with me, otherwise. And it was good to read in another post that SACD bigmouth Groovenoter himself has some bad pressings out as well...To calm you down:
I have experienced problems with a bad Warner DVD-A pressing once, and the Sonopress hybrid DVD-Audio disc I received for testing did not play the way it should in the Denon A-1, Panasonic RP91/RA71, Harman Kardon DVD 1, my Toshiba DVD-ROM,...
In case you want to try any non-crackative European pressing, be it SACD or DVD-Audio or CD, I am ready to swap these with anyone for any American disc I cannot find here...
and it makes my head spin when others do it.Overview. I do not have ANY problem with DVD-A or PCM. It's been made clear that *I* don't like watermarking because I've WORKED with Verance material and don't like it.
And I CERTAINLY don't like the crack problem with Crest hybrids.
I have posted here trying to defend against the "MLP is flawed" crap, which I don't believe.
But, then, I also post against the "DSD noise is audible" crap which I also don't believe in Hirez.
I address specifics. "DVD-A has this problem", but what I get is, "YOU'RE ONE OF THOSE SACD PEOPLE!" ... I didn't draw this line in the sand. I was pushed onto one side of it.
Don't laugh. I think that Hybrid DVD-A/SACDs could be made. I've looked at the UDF directory structure. It isn't impossible.
Mr Stefan Schreiber has outlined his ideas in European audiophile magazines and says he simply wants to end the format war to proliferate hi-rez music. Professionals have rejected his proposals of two-sided bonded discs, and some have even ridiculed his arguments. One of his faults was to suggest that anyone who preferred one format over the other should simply label the "wrong" format side of the disc...A double DSD/MLP mix or re-mix for every new project... I think some DVD-A's would be delayed for light-years then...
DVD-A players should ignore anything extraneous (SACD entries) in the directory tree, but I don't know if that's true with SACD players. (though, it should... Again, they're both UDF.)Just something like this:
Root:\2C_AUDIO
Root:\MC_AUDIO
Root:\AUDIO_TS
Root:\VIDEO_TS2C_AUDIO\2C_AREA1.TOC
2C_AUDIO\2C_AREA2.TOC
2C_AUDIO\2C_TAREA.2CH
2C_AUDIO\TRACK001.2CH
2C_AUDIO\TRACK002.2CH
2C_AUDIO\TRACK003.2CH
2C_AUDIO\TRACK004.2CH
MC_AUDIO\MC_AREA1.TOC
MC_AUDIO\MC_AREA2.TOC
MC_AUDIO\MC_TAREA.MCH
MC_AUDIO\TRACK001.MCH
MC_AUDIO\TRACK002.MCH
MC_AUDIO\TRACK003.MCH
MC_AUDIO\TRACK004.MCH
AUDIO_TS\ATS_01_0.BUP
AUDIO_TS\ATS_01_0.IFO
AUDIO_TS\ATS_01_1.AOB
AUDIO_TS\ATS_01_2.AOB
AUDIO_TS\ATS_01_3.AOB
AUDIO_TS\ATS_01_4.AOB
AUDIO_TS\AUDIO_PP.IFO
AUDIO_TS\AUDIO_SV.IFO
AUDIO_TS\AUDIO_SV.BUP
AUDIO_TS\AUDIO_SV.VOB
AUDIO_TS\AUDIO_TS.BUP
AUDIO_TS\AUDIO_TS.IFO
AUDIO_TS\AUDIO_TS.VOB
AUDIO_TS\DVDAUDIO.BUP
AUDIO_TS\DVDAUDIO.MKB
VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_0.BUP
VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_0.IFO
VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_1.VOB
VIDEO_TS\VIDEO_TS.BUP
VIDEO_TS\VIDEO_TS.IFO...Does anyone think that'd work?
...except for the fact that I might have just mocked up a 15GB disc... But... theoretically?
It seems that both DVD-Audio and SACD players expect incompatible lead-ins on layer 0 - so even if some players (Pioneer, Marantz, Onkyo, recent Sony's) can handle this hybrid, all the others will fail. My Panasonic machine DVD-RA71 (RP-91 U.S.) gets stuck in the CD layer of the Sonopress DVD-A/CD hybrid, the Denon A-1 cannot decide what to do and plays nothing... A DVD-A/SACD hybrid will yield the same results, I'm afraid...
There is room in the DVD Audio spec for dsd tracks.However the sacd security with the pit width processing is a substantial hurdle.
We all have to buy a new player for single sided 'Super DVD Audio Disc' replay.
Frank
is that a separate mechanism? Universal players use the same transport.... That's a point though: how would an existing universal player sort out the disc, even if it did work.
Is that the PSP results in an AM modulated signal on top of the normal disc readout signal. Both can be easily detected and filtered.
The PSP signal would have a lower carrier frequency than the normal signal derived from the disc.
Some of the security data is modulated into the PSP signal.PSP can also be used to create a visible image on the disc.
Because the PSP signal has a lower frequency it also means that the servo focussing mechanism must cope with the lower frequency PSP signal (wich affects the reflected light level).
The focussing servo loop mechanism must be less thight and must act slower to cope with the wider bandwith of the signal coming from the light detectors.
This means that the focussing (an also tracking) is less optimized for the datastream that is holding the actual information.
I suspect that disc and player tolerances must be kept thight to ensure stable operation. Wear and tear and long term in drift electrical circuits parameters can affect the playback reliability.
The many reported problems with TOC read difficulties and failures to recognize sacd layers could be related to the problem.
Frank
Welcome to the other side of the fence Michi.On the Hi-Rez Highway, it's the other way around.
Life's tough sometimes, isn't it?
Regards,
John Kotches
You throw around cheap niceties like "regards" when you don't mean them.What's the other way around, huh? What the HELL is the 'OTHER WAY AROUND' here? What is so "reversed" here where my posting of information is patently FALSE and INAPPROPRIATE?
Yeah, that's right. I'm in your territory.
And PLEASE throw the 'REGARDS' out the window. If we were at a convention, and some DVD-A Jihad zealot shot me in the head, you'd go out for drinks afterwards.
This is a war in which the goal is to cause as much harm to the other side as possible, is it not?
Look Michi, you really need to get that chip off of your shoulder and lighten up.On the Hi-Rez Highway, SACD/DSD is praised to high heaven as the greatest thing ever while DVD-A is often described in terms you used earlier about SACD.
If you step back and think objectively about my message you'd immediately grasp the point.
As far as the "Regards" goes, it's called a closing/signature.
Regards,
John Kotches
Anyone who has read anything I've posted should know that.And I have to say again, I was quite vocal in my incredulity about the supposed "MLP Flaw".
If I was a band-wagoneer, I'd jump on the "MLP Flaw" just because it was Anti DVD-A.
I wouldn't have spent my damn money on a damned 47Ai and 45A if it was dogma for me.
need to be repeated endlessly. Almost everyday, someone makes an inquiry that has been dealt with ad nauseum a week, a month or a year ago. There are also many new members. Just relax. I find DVD-A posters much more reasonable. Many of us hear listen to SACD and DVD-A. That is in contrast to Jazz IM who has no use for DVD-A as he sees only one "survivor" in the format "wars". Unforutunately, he is more representative of many on the hi-rez highway ie. Rich, Teresa(I think she is actually on the vintage forum now, as per Rich) even the moderator of this forum Chris, who clearly chooses sides, even as his SACD player is one of the many being repaired. If we want to giggle over the foibles of SACD, we should be able to, heaven knows many SACD supporters lord it over DVD-A.
First of all you should know that I think Rich is slime. And I think most people with some meat between their ears realize he's a moron, and I'm glad he's gone.Teresa, well, er, I haven't said this yet but she's a little bit nuts. So much so, that I'm somewhat afraid to say so. Her rantings about how anything in DSD is (was) orgasmically an epiphany, and that PCM causes children to murder their parents has given me the raised eyebrow many a time...
It's funny how she did a 180 to vinyl on that, though. She'll probably spend the rest of her days spinning about saying the word 'Vinyl!' over and over again... I don't know about her. That's why they call this the Asylum.
But I've still never taken cheap shots at DVD-A.
after I posted I realized I was a little late to the thread. For some reason the posts all of a sudden appeared even after I had been surfing and posting this morning. Anyway, glad to see things have worked out and settled down. Do I dare say I hope you and Patrick are happy!:') Sorry, couldn't resist.
heh
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