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Have there been any examples of dvd-a player drive mechanisms sustaining damage as a result of playing the 20% heavier dd's.I think the extra weight may be more problematic than the disc's thickness, particularly the stresses on the mechanism incurred with the frequent switching between standard and dd discs.
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I do know that I have more problems playing Dual Discs than either CDs or SACDs. The extra weight and thickness are certainly problems. My Denon 2900 never has a problem with DVDs, CDs or SACDs but does with some Dual Discs.
on which side of the disc/s were you experiencing playback problems?
> > weight and thickness are certainly problems. My Denon 2900 never has a problem with DVDs, CDs or SACDs but does with some Dual Discs < <The weight is irrelevant for the motors in the 2900, 3900 and 5900 series players, which are very strong indeed. In any case, the max thickness of DualDisc is <1.5mm, which is inside Redbook CD spec. So if a CD can be 1.5mm thick, then the proportional weight of the polycarbonate has to be in spec too.
However, in all the above players, there are well documented issues with the DualDisc CD side with its reduced thickness optics (i.e. skipping sometimes on CD side).
But the whole point of DualDiscs is to play the "DVD" side in DVD-A capable players like those above (or any other "DVD" player). People who carp about refusing to accept that rather elementary principle, are either trolls, snobs, or just plain stupid — especially as we never see those same people complain about not being able to play the DVD side in their CD player! duh. ;-)
> > But the whole point of DualDiscs is to play the "DVD" side in DVD-A capable players like those above (or any other "DVD" player). < <Is it? If the DualDisc does not have any DVD-Audio content on the DVD side, or if the user is one of the vast-majority millions of people who own a DVD player that does not have DVD-Audio capability, then there are two choices:
1. Listen to sonically inferior lossy-compression Dolby Digital, or
2. Listen to the "CD" side, which is 16/44.1 with no compressionIf the DVD player has problems playing the "CD" side like your Denon does, then the user's only choice is the low-rez Dolby Digital stuff. That sucks.
> > People who carp about refusing to accept that rather elementary principle, are either trolls, snobs, or just plain stupid — especially as we never see those same people complain about not being able to play the DVD side in their CD player! duh. ;-) < <
What a ridiculous thing to say. None of the CD players I own advertise the ability to play DVDs, so I don't expect them to do so.
OTOH, your Denon has a big fat "Compact Disc Digital Audio" compatibility logo silk-screened right on the front of the player, so it is quite reasonable to expect that the player can play CDs without any problem. Since your player cannot play the "CD" side of a DualDisc, which is advertised as being CD-compatible, then there is a problem with your player, or a problem with the media, or both. This kind of incompatibility is not acceptable to most reasonable, thinking people. Since you have stated several times that this incompatibility is acceptable to you, then by your own terms you must be a troll, a snob, or just plain plain stupid (or all three).
> > If the DVD player has problems playing the "CD" side like your Denon does, then the user's only choice is the low-rez Dolby Digital stuff. That sucks. < <Can you please go back into your "research" mode, and name all the DVD-Video player models which would have a technical problem?
As far as I am aware, the DVD players "of the vast-majority millions of people who own a DVD player that does not have DVD-Audio capability" [or don't use six analog jacks] by all accounts play the CD side (and DVD side) perfectly well.
Even your Pioneer DV-45 plays them OK.
As for the Denon 2900, 3900 and 5900 family, these all play the DVD-Audio content fine. (So these plainly do not fall into your group.)
And regarding Dolby, which clearly "sucks" to you, isn't it quite bizarre then that you saw fit to acquire an HT system with Bryston amps etc. to play back this really sucky sucky Dolby 5.1 audio through it?! ;-)
Anyway, the point is moot (to normal, reasonable people), since those who have DVD-video players wouldn't expect to play hirez surround anyhow. To them Dolby 5.1 surround is what they are used to. If they wanted hirez 5.1, they would be like me, i.e. they would have a DVD-A/V player.
> > OTOH, your Denon has a big fat "Compact Disc Digital Audio" compatibility logo silk-screened right on the front of the player . . . < <
Nope. Put your glasses on. And look again. Closer.
> > This kind of incompatibility is not acceptable to most reasonable, thinking people < <
Correction, it may suck to you -- like most things suck to you. Indeed, we expect nothing less from you.
> > Can you please go back into your "research" mode, and name all the DVD-Video player models which would have a technical problem? < <Yours would. That's all I need to know.
> > As far as I am aware, the DVD players "of the vast-majority millions of people who own a DVD player that does not have DVD-Audio capability" [or don't use six analog jacks] by all accounts play the CD side (and DVD side) perfectly well. < <
Given the multitude of complaints about playback issues for nearly every DualDisc sold, I wouldn't make such a bold statement. On Amazon.com it seems there are more complaints about playback issues on a multitude of players than there are actual kudos for the music.
> > As for the Denon 2900, 3900 and 5900 family, these all play the DVD-Audio content fine. (So these plainly do not fall into your group.) < <
I know you are desperately trying to dodge the issue, but the fact is that the majority of DualDiscs on the market DO NOT have DVD-Audio content. Too bad that inconvenient little piece of information screws up your spin.
> > And regarding Dolby, which clearly "sucks" to you, isn't it quite bizarre then that you saw fit to acquire an HT system with Bryston amps etc. to play back this really sucky sucky Dolby 5.1 audio through it?! ;-) < <
Yes, I use the cheap stuff to playback movies. So what's your point? Do you even have one?
> > Nope. Put your glasses on. And look again. Closer. < <
I don't need glasses, or reading lessons. Looky here:
See that logo in the lower right-hand corner? It says "Compact Disc." I can see it without having to squint.
You can also look here:
Page 8 contains a chart showing all of the discs the player is supposed to play. There's that big, fat Compact Disc logo again!
Got anything else you need to be embarrassed over? I'm game :-)
> > Indeed, we expect nothing less from you. < <
Who is "we?" You and your lengthy list of Audio Asylum sockpuppets? Or did you forget to take your meds again?
> > Given the multitude of complaints about playback issues for nearly every DualDisc sold, I wouldn't make such a bold statement. < <And if you read them, most of them revolve around people trying to copy them on computer drives.
There's also a troll going round every DualDisc title on Amazon who's posted the same inane message.
> > but the fact is that the majority of DualDiscs on the market DO NOT have DVD-Audio content. < <
Simply wrong there. Show us your "research" to support your "fact".
> > I don't need glasses, or reading lessons. Looky here: < <
f.y.i. your statement was wrong. The logo does not say "Compact Disc Digital Audio" (as you said earlier), but what it says on my player is: "Compact Disc Digital Video"
Anyway, DualDiscs don't have any Redbook logo on them.
> > Who is "we?" < <
All the readers of the forum who think you are complete twit who hasn't got a life. What does your poor wife think of your spending all this time writing crap about discs that you don't intent to buy? (Or, maybe it's a blessed relief when you're out of the way.)
> > And if you read them, most of them revolve around people trying to copy them on computer drives. < <Oh, the horror! Those silly people, expecting something advertised as functioning just like a CD to actually work just like a CD!
> > Simply wrong there. Show us your "research" to support your "fact". < <
You're right - out of the 101 discs listed under the DualDisc category, 68 of them probably have DVD-A content. About 55 of them come from Silverline, the remainder from UMG and Warner (and one from BMG). You see Martin - I can admit when I'm wrong. To bad you're not mature enough to do the same.
> > f.y.i. your statement was wrong. The logo does not say "Compact Disc Digital Audio" (as you said earlier), but what it says on my player is: "Compact Disc Digital Video" < <
Oh gosh, what a HUGE difference! Martin scores again!
However, I will repeat what I said previously, which you ignored in your hope of scoring a minor point:
it is quite reasonable to expect that the player can play CDs without any problem. Since your player cannot play the "CD" side of a DualDisc, which is advertised as being CD-compatible, then there is a problem with your player, or a problem with the media, or both. This kind of incompatibility is not acceptable to most reasonable, thinking people. Since you have stated several times that this incompatibility is acceptable to you, then by your own terms you must be a troll, a snob, or just plain plain stupid (or all three).
> > Anyway, DualDiscs don't have any Redbook logo on them. < <
You finally figured this out. Congratulations.
> > All the readers of the forum who think you are complete twit who hasn't got a life. < <
And that would be...you? I find it awfully funny that a person who has used at least six different monikers, deliberately sockpuppeted, amassed over three thousand posts in just _two_ forums on AA, with a stated life-mission of defending "the purity of future audio transmission," would try to claim that someone else hasn't got a life. If you want to see someone who hasn't got a life, Martin, you need only look at the reflection in your computer screen.
> > What does your poor wife think of your spending all this time writing crap about discs that you don't intent to buy? (Or, maybe it's a blessed relief when you're out of the way.) < <
And now you've proved that you are also a worthless pile of dung. I have NEVER stooped down to insulting your family. It would never even occur to me to be so vulgar. Apparently nothing is beneath you, though. How utterly classless and contemptible you are. Have fun cowering in your wretched little Tooting hovel with your crappy mass-market electronics, you useless worm.
as it's obvious that there is no love loss between the both of you. From this point on, it'll be the same deal as it was between Jazz and DUI over on HiRez.You can both post to the same thread, but do NOT post in reply to one another. Any explicit references to the other, or for that matter, any witty implicit references, will be deemed a violation of the King's decree and summary execution will result.
Email me if either of you don't understand.
Personally, I don't think that Martin insulted your wife or your family, per se, but rather, it was more an insult directed towards you, FWIW and notwithstanding the melodrama.
Thanks for playing along.
Very amusing - thanks for the laugh guys... :-) But - I have harped about my 5900 not playing the CD side - and yes racerguy - it is because the dvd side is dolby digital and my rig is primarily geered towards a nice stereo mix. ) I won't buy any more dual discs because nothing is stated on the label for most - and again I have harped for a real live spec. I would have bought the latest Dave Mathews on Dual disc - but bought the CD instead. Why? Because of bad experiences I have had with others - and even though there is DVD-A on that disc - it usually is never stated on the disc... It is always a 'surprise' - and I don't really like sutprises. I like to know what I am purchasing.
> > In any case, the max thickness of DualDisc is <1.5mm, which is inside Redbook CD spec. So if a CD can be 1.5mm thick, then the proportional weight of the polycarbonate has to be in spec too. < <In the interest of controversy, I just performed an experiment. I used a precision electronic scale (a Jadever JKD-250) that is accurate to 0.05g, and weighed a bunch of discs randomly pulled out of my collection. The scale was calibrated with a calibration weight. I weighed each disc 3 times to be sure of accuracy. I'll caveat this by saying that since I don't own any DualDiscs, I had to borrow one from a neighbor, so the sample range isn't as wide as it should be; therefore, I will not call this experiment "scientific," merely interesting. :-)
Disc - Format - Weight(in grams) - Comment
Kraftwerk: Tour de France - CD - 14.80 - Redbook CD released 2003
e-Nomine: Die Prophezeiung - SACD - 14.30
Pink Floyd: DSOTM - SACD - 16.65
Tangerine Dream: Cyclone - CD - 16.75 - Redbook CD manufactured 1985
Nine Inch Nails: With Teeth - DualDisc - 19.25
OST: You Only Live Twice - CD - 14.95
Coltrane: Blue Train - HDAD - 16.45
Metheny: Imaginary Day - DVD-A - 16.90
Berloiz: Requiem - SACD - 16.30 - RCA Living Stereo Disc 1 of 2
Berloiz: Requiem - SACD - 16.30 - RCA Living Stereo Disc 2 of 2
Mickey Hart: Over the Edge - DVD-A - 16.70
Stanley Clarke: If this bass... - CD - 16.05 - Redbook CD manufactured mid-'90s
Herbert Grönemeyer: Bleibt Alles Anders - CD - 15.40
Alan Parsons Project: Turn of a... - HDAD - 16.65
Herbert Grönemeyer: Stand Der Dinge - DVDplus - 20.60 - Disc 1 of 2
Herbert Grönemeyer: Stand Der Dinge - DVDplus - 20.30 - Disc 2 of 2Lightest CD - 14.80 (Kraftwerk)
Heaviest CD - 16.75 (Tangerine Dream - early Redbook)Lightest SACD - 14.30 (e-Nomine)
Heaviest SACD - 16.65 (DSOTM)Lightest DVD-A - 16.70 (Hart)
Heaviest DVD-A - 16.90 (Metheny)All SACDs weighed are hybrids.
The 1985-manufacture Tangerine Dream Redbook appears to be thicker than most later-manufacture CDs.
HDADs are dual-sided DVDs, weight is consistent with CDs, DVD-As and SACDs.
DVDplus is a structure similar to DualDisc - dual-sided, with DVD on one side, CD on the other. The DVDplus discs I have are early DVDplus (circa 2000), and they are substantially thicker than anything else (approx 1.8mm), so it's no surpise they are heavy. The heaviest DVDplus is 19% heavier than the heaviest CD, and 18% heavier than the heaviest DVD-A. The latest version of DVDplus is supposed to be thinner and lighter.
The DualDisc is new-manufacture. I did not measure its thickness, but it is interesting that it is notably heavier than all the other "standard-format" discs. Only the DVDplus discs are heavier (by 7%).
The DualDisc is 13% heavier than the heaviest CD, 23% heavier than the lightest CD.
The DualDisc is 10% heavier than the heaviest DVD-A, 13% heavier than the lightest DVD-A. It's also interesting to note that the HDADs are slightly lighter than the lightest DVD-A.
The DualDisc is 14% heavier than the heaviest SACD, 26% (!!!!) heavier than the lightest SACD.
So, this one DualDisc I was able to obtain does not fit into your supposition, Martin. If it is a representative sample (and I have no reason to believe it is not), then DualDiscs are not in proportion from a weight standpoint. They are substantially heavier.
I did some additional digging, and found that the ECMA standard for the mass of a DVD disc is 13g to 20g. The bulk of the DVD discs I weighed fall right in the middle of that range, as should be expected. The DualDisc, at 19.25g, is within the standard; however, it shows that once again DualDisc pushes to the outer edge of tolerance. DualDiscs are at or near maximum allowable thickness, and it appears that they are also at or near maximum allowable weight.Will this cause a problem? Cheerleaders say no, haters say yes. I say: I don't know.
> > Will this cause a problem? < <
> > If it is a representative sample (and I have no reason to believe it is not), then DualDiscs are not in proportion from a weight standpoint. They are substantially heavier. < <What I said was that if Rebook CD spec allows for a disc that is "1.5mm" thick, then the proportional weight of polycarbonate must be in spec too.
what sort of problems are you having? i'm interested to know, as i've been too chicken to play any dualdiscs in my player.Martin419 claims he's never had any problems on his Denon 5900, so i'm interested in your experiences.
> > Martin419 claims he's never had any problems on his Denon 5900 < <That's not correct. Martin has admitted that he cannot play the "CD" side of DualDiscs on his Denon. Of course, he has also said that he does not want to play the "CD" side, so to him the issue is moot.
> > Martin has admitted that he cannot play the "CD" side of DualDiscs on his Denon. < <Yep -- that is indeed correct. My -5900 is the only machine I've used which has issues with the CD side. But it's also the same machine with which I enjoy the 5.1 DVD-A side of my DualDiscs, and it's the 'reason' I bought the DualDiscs in the first place.
"what sort of problems are you having?"
the CD side is supposedly out of spec, but the DVD side is in spec.I've had problems reading the CD side from about halfway into the disc on the DVD drive on my HTPC, and problems reading at least one disc on the DVD side on my laptop. i don't know if the probblem reading the DVD side is weight related (since the motor on the laptop drive must be extremely small).
The skipping is on the CD side when played in my 2900. I've yet to buy a Dual Disc that will play (CD Side) in my car's cd player.
Best advice is to make a CD-R backup of the CD side, and use that in your car. That way you can keep your hirez titles beside your 5.1 setup at home, without fear of dust etc. from your car interior damaging your prized hirez music.FWIW, my Audi 6-CD changer has no problems with CD side of DualDiscs. Neither does my:- Aiwa 'discman'; Technics CD player; Panasonic CD/DVD boombox; and also my Sony Playstation 2 -- new slim version.
is able to rip files from DualDiscs (with auto correction enabled) almost twice as fast as normal discs. Make sense of that!
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