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In Reply to: Re: Listening to two DVD-Audios: Bach/St. Matthew Passion/Harnoncourt (Teldec) and Mozart/Figaro (Naxos) posted by Martin419 on October 6, 2005 at 06:14:29:
*** Well, in as much as practically all other DVD players out there have DVD-Video 'speaker distance settings'. ;-) ***I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. The manual states that the speaker distance settings apply to all listening modes (including DVD-Audio). Panasonic is one of the co-inventors of the DVD-Audio format, I think they would have the right R&D resources to get it "right".
They player even supports Dolby Pro Logic II, and can apply it to all stereo sources, *including* hi-rez DVD-Audio :-)
*** So audio-wise, my room is pretty non-reactive, and non-reflective ***
When I visited your room, I saw plenty of hard reflective surfaces, mainly your walls. Unless you've padded every square inch of wall, and your entire ceiling, you will get a lot of reflections.
Trust me, I have done some impulse measurements on my room. Even with a heavy curtain covering the entire back wall, thick rug etc. I still get plenty of reflections :-)
*** which are improved by having fully brick walls on all four sides ***
Uhmm, brick walls are the *worst" in terms of reflections. Modern construction materials are actually far better. And timber floor supports are also extremely boomy - a concrete slab is much better. In our case, our house is relatively new - it's a "mock Federation" design which means it looks like a 100 year old house but constructed using modern materials. I suspect the person who designed it was an audiophile - the main living room adheres to the "Golden Ratio" dimensions for a perfect listening room :-) I originally thought this was fortuitous, but looking at the design of the house i suspect it was intentional, as the extended length breaks the symmetry of a Federation design and would have cost extra.
*** Also, I wouldn’t want to add any processing stage between my player’s analog outs and the power-amp (everything in between is in the analog domain). ***
But time alignment and bass management are processing stages too - they just happen to be in the digital domain. All processing stages negatively impact the sound - it depends on the trade off you are willing to make - does the benefit outweigh the loss in quality? In my case, I believe the answer is NO for both, but may tip to YES for room correction.
In my case, I will be doing room correction in the digital domain too - that's the advantage of ripping DVD-Audios onto the hard disk.
My player supports HDMI 1.1 (allows full m-ch hi-rez digital out) so I can do room correction directly on disc playback in the future if i wanted to. But i'm not sure i want to go there just yet.
*** And if I understand your system right, that means you have eight independent channels at around 250W each? I’m envious! ***
Yes. The amps suck out so much power the lights dim when i switch each one of them individually on. At peak, they draw well over 3000W from the power supply!
Unfortunately, it's the minimum to be able to listen to music at an average levels of 78-85dB (Grammy surround music production recommendation for critical listening/monitoring) without clipping. Even then, there is a slight possibility of clipping at 85dB (but I never listen up there, so that's okay).
*** You did say that my [then prototype] DVDA11 sounded "better" then your Panny ***
You forgot, I've recently upgraded my player to the DVD-S97, so my comments pertain to that model.
I really like the S97 - as you know Panasonic players have always been the "king" in terms of video quality (so says the "Secrets" benchmark and also based on plenty of objective criteria). But audio on this player is fantastic as well - it uses the BB PCM1791 DACs, similar to the ones used in Denon players, but with an added advantage: Panasonic uses a stock standard design for the audio stage (straight off the Application Note) rather than the custom audio stage used by Denon. Modern DACS are very sensitive to the op amps used in the analog stage - unless you really know what you are doing it's better to stick to the textbook design. In the case of Denon, I'm not convinced their proprietary audio stage is an improvement - not to my ears anyway.
Also, the S97 the only player I know that explicitly handles 0dBFS+ levels - it allows the output to be attenuated by up to 6dB prior to the digital filter to allow for additional headroom to prevent clipping. None of the Denon players handle 0dBFS+ - they all clip.
Finally, I'm a purist and hate resampling (unless of course, additional processing such as room correction is done at the same time). The denon AL24+ algorithm can't be defeated. Panasonic has three different upsampling algorithms, but they can be switched off. Even better, if you are into resampling, the S97 will upsample into the digital output, so you can use an external DAC.
*** You mentioned my bass was more fullsome ***
That comment again is probably more relevant for my old system, rather than my new. Upgrading the amps have dramatically improved bass response (well, I was surprised - in hindsight it's obvious - a higher slew rate and dampling factor would dramatically tighten bass handling). depending on listening position, i'm now measuring bass response all the way down to 30 Hz on any of the main speakers (without even using a subwoofer). Even my subwoofer doesn't go much below 26 Hz so this means my subwoofer is completely redundant (unless there is a dedicated .1 track).
*** Denon really improved the BM functionality & flexibility on the -A11 compared with the -A1/-9000. For that reason alone I would not pick that older player, even though its DACs are very good. ***
I don't care about bass management, remember? so it's a moot point :-) I do care about absolute sound quality, and as I recall that player was gorgeous sounding.
Follow Ups:
> > I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. The manual states that the speaker distance settings apply to all listening modes (including DVD-Audio). < <Nope, the DVD-S97S manual I've just read doesn’t. I’ve read the PDF, and there’s absolutely no specific mention of "DVD-Audio" under the "delay time" speaker setup section.
> > Panasonic is one of the co-inventors of the DVD-Audio format, I think they would have the right R&D resources to get it "right". < <Uh, so Denon wasted their time by specifying, not one, but TWO 32bit floating-point SHARC DSP processors to do realtime high-sample-rate & 24bit BM & TA for DVD-A? ;-)
> > They player even supports Dolby Pro Logic II, and can apply it to all stereo sources, *including* hi-rez DVD-Audio :-) < <That’s funny, since DPLII works up to 48kHz/16bit. So I suspect that your player downsamples everything prior to the DAC, in order to apply the DPLII processing. :)
> > When I visited your room, I saw plenty of hard reflective surfaces, mainly your walls. Unless you've padded every square inch of wall, and your entire ceiling, you will get a lot of reflections. < <
The anaglypta lining is a ** soft ** polymer. Also, the main speakers are now angled slightly upwards and inwards thus avoiding perpendicular angles with the walls, and are aimed at the listener position, i.e. a large 3-seater suede sofa! Don’t forget there’s another heavily padded sofa by the adjacent wall.
> > Uhmm, brick walls are the *worst" in terms of reflections. < <They absolutely don’t resonate like wood or plasterboard. REL itself recommends dense brick (or concrete) walls as the acoustically optimum construction material for adjacent walls.
> > But time alignment and bass management are processing stages too - they just happen to be in the digital domain. < <Yep, but in my player they happen transparently at source -- where it should -- in the 32-bit floating point domain with data taken directly from the disc.
> > All processing stages negatively impact the sound - it depends on the trade off you are willing to make - does the benefit outweigh the loss in quality? < <I detect no loss in quality. And the benefits are obvious.
> > The amps suck out so much power the lights dim when i switch each one of them individually on. At peak, they draw well over 3000W from the power supply! < <I’d be worried about my electricity bill! And they are putting up prices in the UK yet again!
> > Unfortunately, it's the minimum to be able to listen to music at an average levels of 78-85dB (Grammy surround music production recommendation for critical listening/monitoring) without clipping. Even then, there is a slight possibility of clipping at 85dB (but I never listen up there, so that's okay). < <Decent high current amps can take peak transients of much greater than the rated RMS wattage in their stride. I simply ** don’t believe ** that you need as many watts as you are implying for yours (or my) normal listening levels. And I do know a struggling amp when I hear one! And mine ain't struggling. Not by a long shot. In short, we’ll have to agree to disagree on this subject.
> > Also, the S97 the only player I know that explicitly handles 0dBFS+ levels - it allows the output to be attenuated by up to 6dB prior to the digital filter to allow for additional headroom to prevent clipping. None of the Denon players handle 0dBFS+ - they all clip. < <Firstly, I'm not convinced of that (and, in any case, you didn't test my player). Moreover, and despite all of this, you still rate Denon DVCD-A1/-9000 as an ideal sounding player.
IMO, if a recording ever gets right to 0db (i.e. top-of-scale amplitude level) then the engineer has made a bad mistake anyway. In such a case, you can bet your ‘bottom dollar’ that there are many more transients that would try to overshoot by a considerable margin and clip any ADC. So the point is moot.
> > The denon AL24+ algorithm can't be defeated. < <Oh, yes it can! You can switch it off via the firewire setting, coupled with setting ‘Source-Direct’.
But I do like AL24+ And it didn’t stop you saying the -9000/-A1 sounded "gorgeous", even with its (first-generation) AL24 engaged. ;-)
> > Even my subwoofer doesn't go much below 26 Hz so this means my subwoofer is completely redundant (unless there is a dedicated .1 track). < <
FWIW my new Storm 5 goes down to 15Hz!
> > I do care about absolute sound quality, and as I recall that player [-9000/-A1] was gorgeous sounding. < <As I said, my present -A11 player is ** much better ** sounding than the prototype one which you heard.
*** Nope, the DVD-S97S manual I've just read doesn’t. I’ve read the PDF, and there’s absolutely no specific mention of "DVD-Audio" under the "delay time" speaker setup section. ***You will note that whenever a feature only works on a particular media type, the manual will always explicitly note the contraint. No constraint means feature is available for all media.
In any case, i don't need time alignment so i don't care whether the player has it or not.
*** Uh, so Denon wasted their time by specifying, not one, but TWO 32bit floating-point SHARC DSP processors to do realtime high-sample-rate & 24bit BM & TA for DVD-A? ;-) ***
And the point is? So, only players with twin SHARC processors are able to do time alignment?
*** That’s funny, since DPLII works up to 48kHz/16bit. ***
where did you get this? it's certainly not in the manual, which says DPLII works on "all" stereo sources.
*** The anaglypta lining is a ** soft ** polymer. Also, the main speakers are now angled slightly upwards and inwards thus avoiding perpendicular angles with the walls, and are aimed at the listener position, i.e. a large 3-seater suede sofa! Don’t forget there’s another heavily padded sofa by the adjacent wall. ***
Why don't you do an impulse measurement? Then you will know for sure. Just don't be too surprised at the results!
*** They absolutely don’t resonate like wood or plasterboard. ***
Uhmm, what makes you say so? Really, you say the funniest things sometimes! Do you check any of your assumptions before posting them as "facts"? have you even read articles on room treatments?
*** I simply ** don’t believe ** that you need as many watts as you are implying for yours (or my) normal listening levels. ***
Remember the URL to the calculator I posted a while ago. Put in the numbers and do the maths yourself.
Remember though that the inverse square law applies. The further you are away from the speakers, the more power is required (exponentially). It's easy to get away with a 20w amplifier and not clip if you sit really really close to the speakers. :-)
*** And I do know a struggling amp when I hear one! And mine ain't struggling ***
How would you know? Have you done measurements? Do you know exactly when your amp starts to clip? (Hint - it's usually far below the rated power. So much for "headroom". The rated power of an amp is when the clipping reaches the level of 1% THD, so every amp at rated power is ALREADY clipping). if you do a plot of THD vs power, you find that it decreases (at low levels the THD is dominated by the noise floor), hits a low point (usually around 0.1%, but on a good amp 0.01% or even lower) and then starts rising exponentially. The point where it starts rising is the clipping point. An amp rated at 100 watt may well start clipping at 50-80W or perhaps even lower.
And m-ch power amps lie. When they say 100W per channel, they mean 100w with just one channel operating. With 5-7 channels all blasting away, the rated power may be as low as 30W - which means it probably starts to clip at 20W!
Now you have a much smaller room than mine, so it may well be that you are okay, since you will be a lot closer to the speakers. But don't assume - might be worthwhile measuring!
*** Firstly, I'm not convinced of that (and, in any case, you didn't test my player). ***
How do you know I haven't tested the A11? A friend of mine has one (I did say i've listened to it on my system ...). In any case, test it yourself. it's easy to do.
*** Moreover, and despite all of this, you still rate Denon DVCD-A1/-9000 as an ideal sounding player. ***
Uhmm, i didn't say that. i just said it was gorgeous sounding, and i wouldn't mind buying one.
*** IMO, if a recording ever gets right to 0db (i.e. top-of-scale amplitude level) then the engineer has made a bad mistake anyway. In such a case, you can bet your ‘bottom dollar’ that there are many more transients that would try to overshoot by a considerable margin and clip any ADC. So the point is moot. ***
You obviously don't understand what 0dBFS+ is. Or how prevalent it is on recordings.
*** Oh, yes it can! You can switch it off via the firewire setting, coupled with setting ‘Source-Direct’. ***
Thanks, didn't know that! I guess I was bitching about my old Denon amp, which wasn't defeatable.
*** And it didn’t stop you saying the -9000/-A1 sounded "gorgeous", even with its (first-generation) AL24 engaged. ;-) ****
And it does sound gorgeous! Doesn't stop me from wishing I could turn AL24 off though (and I don't think I can on this player, but I could be wrong.)
*** FWIW my new Storm 5 goes down to 15Hz! ***
Have you actually measured what the "real" response is in your room? Specs for subwoofers are meaningless, the room will actually constrain how low you can go (regardless of what the driver is capable of). My subwoofer specs say it will go down to 20 Hz, but the room constrains it to a min of 26 Hz. And as I recall, your room is a lot smaller than mine.
*** As I said, my present -A11 player is ** much better ** sounding than the prototype one which you heard. ***
Good on you. I know how the A11 sounds like, I have a friend who owns one, and we've listened to it a few times at my place.
> > You will note that whenever a feature only works on a particular media type, the manual will always explicitly note the contraint. No constraint means feature is available for all media. < <The other cheaper Panny players say the ** same thing ** regarding TA. I simply don’t believe that all the TA processing extends to hirez-DVD-Audio. You need real horsepower to do that. You don’t get something for nothing. And the Panny’s simply don’t have the horsepower. [or tell me where the heck it is then?!]. In short, they must be cutting corners. And the manual itself reeks of Japanese-to-English dumbed-down techno-twaddle.
> > *** Uh, so Denon wasted their time by specifying, not one, but TWO 32bit floating-point SHARC DSP processors to do realtime high-sample-rate & 24bit BM & TA for DVD-A? ;-) *** And the point is? < <
The point is that I know Denon has the necessary horsepower to do it properly, unlike the Panny players which are cutting corners. They cut corners with your motor and build, and they’ll have done it with other aspects. But, for the price, Panny offer do good value for money.
> > *** That’s funny, since DPLII works up to 48kHz/16bit.where did you get this? it's certainly not in the manual, which says DPLII works on "all" stereo sources. < <
Of course they would say that. And indeed they can easily downsample the stereo from hires DVDA to 44.1 or 48lkHz for DPLII. And I note they don’t give a freq response spec for the DVD-A - to - DPLII conversion!!
> > *** They absolutely don’t resonate like wood or plasterboard. *** Uhmm, what makes you say so? Really, you say the funniest things sometimes! Do you check any of your assumptions before posting them as "facts"? have you even read articles on room treatments? < <
Density & resonant frequencies ARE related. Unless my university professor got it all wrong. ;-) Anyway, with respect, I’ll take REL’s word over yours. Thank you.
> > *** I simply ** don’t believe ** that you need as many watts as you are implying for yours (or my) normal listening levels. *** Remember the URL to the calculator I posted a while ago. < <
Calculate-away all you want, Christine. As I said, we must agree to disagree here.
> > And m-ch power amps lie. When they say 100W per channel, they mean 100w with just one channel operating. With 5-7 channels all blasting away, the rated power may be as low as 30W - which means it probably starts to clip at 20W! < <
I like your use of the word "Maybe". Gives you a nice getout. But I know what you mean. And indeed, some m-ch amps & receivers actually consume less power at the wall than the combined totals of the max channel ratings! But in my case, the amp I use can draw around a kilowatt of power from the wall without even breaking sweat.
Also, I note that its five channels are "conservatively rated" at 120W RMS each. Moreover, the spec explicitly says that this applies with "all channels driven".
Another thing, normally, with my bass management engaged, most of the heavy stuff goes to the sub. This leaves my amp with much less work to do, and thus more headroom.> > And it does sound gorgeous! Doesn't stop me from wishing I could turn AL24 off though (and I don't think I can on this player, but I could be wrong.) < <
Hey — It could have been precisely because of the AL24, that the player sounded even more "gorgeous" than it would otherwise have done! :-)
> > *** FWIW my new Storm 5 goes down to 15Hz! *** Have you actually measured what the "real" response is in your room? < <
Well, I played the deepest organ music I could find [Mendelsohn, Peter Hurford, fugues etc.], and believe me, I’ve never heard ** anything ** go so deep as it did on the Storm. And I strictly follow REL’s corner placement instructions for the Storm. (p.s. I used to sing about 10ft away from big organ pipes in the school choir loft — so I do know what to listen for).
> > I have a friend who owns one, and we've listened to it a few times at my place. < <
Oh yes? But I’m still waiting for your detailed review then! No excuse now. ;-)
*** The other cheaper Panny players say the ** same thing ** regarding TA. I simply don’t believe that all the TA processing extends to hirez-DVD-Audio. You need real horsepower to do that. You don’t get something for nothing. And the Panny’s simply don’t have the horsepower. [or tell me where the heck it is then?!]. In short, they must be cutting corners. And the manual itself reeks of Japanese-to-English dumbed-down techno-twaddle. ***What makes you think time alignment require a lot of horsepower? All it requires is a memory buffer. And what makes you think the player doesn't have enough horsepower? How would you know? Just because it doesn't have a SHARC? Do you think a player that can do DPLII (which require reasonable processing power) would somehow run out of steam managing a memory buffer?
And in future, I would suggest you keep your racist comments to yourself. I thought the manual was reasonably readable.
*** Of course they would say that. And indeed they can easily downsample the stereo from hires DVDA to 44.1 or 48lkHz for DPLII. And I note they don’t give a freq response spec for the DVD-A - to - DPLII conversion!! ***
Ahh, I see. No facts, just opinion and innuendo.
*** Density & resonant frequencies ARE related. Unless my university professor got it all wrong. ;-) Anyway, with respect, I’ll take REL’s word over yours. Thank you. ***
As you wish. Hint: why does REL recommend corner placement? Is it because reflections reinforce bass? In that case, wouldn't it be logical for them to recommend the most reflective material, rather than the least? Think about it. You can't have it both ways: a non reflective room, but strong bass from corner positioning (which requires reflection).
*** Hey — It could have been precisely because of the AL24, that the player sounded even more "gorgeous" than it would otherwise have done! :-) ***
It could be. Or perhaps it may sound even better without.
*** Oh yes? But I’m still waiting for your detailed review then! No excuse now. ;-) ***
Why should I review it? It's my friend's player. I only review review samples supplied by the distributor when asked to do so, not random players.
But I can tell you we have compared the two players side by side. And after that my friend bought a Panasonic as well. I will let you draw your own conclusions from that.
In fact I think he bought two (he got scared when my RP82 broke down). But then, he can afford it, if you think my amps are overkill you don't want to know how much he has spent on amps (think Class A 400 watts monoblocks, which he has now traded for something even more obscenely expensive. However, he said he liked my A5s so much he's thinking of trading down to them, but he was worried that they were too inexpensive. I said to him, just bi-amp everything and spend twice the money :-)
> > How would you know? < <I did ask you where the horsepower was — Go on, open it up and use your electronics background to identify the DSP chip(s) and their capabilities. Or ask Panny if you can’t figure out what’s inside.
> > Just because it doesn't have a SHARC? Do you think a player that can do DPLII (which require reasonable processing power) would somehow run out of steam managing a memory buffer? < <But DPLII is NOT hirez. Everything becomes a LOT easier in 48/16! :)
> > And in future, I would suggest you keep your racist comments to yourself. I thought the manual was reasonably readable. < <That's not racist. It’s a truism. It is fair to say that most Japanese consumer companies, whilst they can design and make good products, are invariably guilty of writing terrible manuals for their English speaking customers. I certainly wouldn’t be alone in saying that.
> > *** And I note they don’t give a freq response spec for the DVD-A - to - DPLII conversion!! *** Ahh, I see. No facts, just opinion and innuendo. < <OK Chistine, show me a spec which shows DPLII with a freq-response output specification exceeding 22kHz?
b.t.w. I found one from Dolby, and it only goes up to 20kHz.
> > As you wish. Hint: why does REL recommend corner placement? Is it because reflections reinforce bass? In that case, wouldn't it be logical for them to recommend the most reflective material, rather than the least? Think about it. You can't have it both ways: a non reflective room, but strong bass from corner positioning (which requires reflection). < <I’ll say it again: REL recommends BRICK walls for best sound. Brick is DENSE. It doesn’t add resonance noise (whereas plasterboard and other such wall materials certainly would). As for any stray mid & high frequencies, most of these are taken care of by the abundance of carpet & soft furnishings in my room (as I have explained). Indeed, when I click my fingers, there is no echo (unlike when I do this in my tiled bathroom or kitchen).
> > It could be. Or perhaps it may sound even better without [AL24]. < <And as they say, Christine, ignorance is bliss.
> > Why should I review it? It's my friend's player. I only review review samples supplied by the distributor when asked to do so, not random players. < <Christine, because its our hobby. i.e. you "enjoy" it. Anyway, you once said that MichaelDVD didn’t pay you to do the reviews, since you do it on an amateur basis. (Just as I don’t get paid to write reviews in HFR.) So what’s the problem?
And not that I doubt you for a second, but how do we know you haven’t just made-up some key aspect of this 'friend / DVD-A11' story to suit your argument? After all, you were not wholesome with the truth when you said that the manual, and I quote: " . . . states that the speaker distance settings apply to all listening modes including DVD-Audio"
When it doesn’t "state" that at all.p.s. I’m looking forward to the photo of the -A11 hooked up to your MF A5s . . . :-)
> > In fact I think he bought two (he got scared when my RP82 broke down). But then, he can afford it, if you think my amps are overkill you don't want to know how much he has spent on amps (think Class A 400 watts monoblocks, which he has now traded for something even more obscenely expensive. < <Ah, so you DO admit that 'overkill' is a means to impress in your social circles. ;-)
> > I said to him, just bi-amp everything and spend twice the money :-) < <There we go again: 'overkill'. You do like it. :)
*** I did ask you where the horsepower was — Go on, open it up and use your electronics background to identify the DSP chip(s) and their capabilities. Or ask Panny if you can’t figure out what’s inside. ***So, in other words, you want *me* to disprove a baseless statement from you. That's rich. Even if I listed every chip in the player, what difference does it make? You will just call me a liar (see below).
*** But DPLII is NOT hirez. Everything becomes a LOT easier in 48/16! :) ***
C'mon Martin, how much processing power does it take to manage a memory buffer? And how do you know DPL II is not hirez?
*** That's not racist. It’s a truism. ***
Now that is truly offensive.
*** OK Chistine, show me a spec which shows DPLII with a freq-response output specification exceeding 22kHz? ***
I really don't know what point you are trying to make here. Are you trying to say that DPL II *cannot* be implemented in anything other than 48/16? The Fosgate DPL II decoder is implemented completely in analog. Therefore, no frequency limitation at all.
*** I’ll say it again: REL recommends BRICK walls for best sound. ***
Again, you can't have it both ways. Either your walls reflect, or they don't. If they don't, then there is no point in placing your subwoofer in a corner, and therefore you wouldn't be getting good bass. Since you are claiming you are getting good bass, therefore your walls must be reflecting. Otherwise, you are not getting good bass. So, which is it?
*** Christine, because its our hobby. i.e. you "enjoy" it. Anyway, you once said that MichaelDVD didn’t pay you to do the reviews, since you do it on an amateur basis. (Just as I don’t get paid to write reviews in HFR.) So what’s the problem? ***
As I've said, I only review on request, and only on review samples. You noticed, I have not posted reviews on any of the players that I own. If I don't even post reviews of players I own, why should I write reviews of other people's players?
*** And not that I doubt you for a second, but how do we know you haven’t just made-up some key aspect of this 'friend / DVD-A11' story to suit your argument? After all, you were not wholesome with the truth when you said that the manual, and I quote: " . . . states that the speaker distance settings apply to all listening modes including DVD-Audio"
When it doesn’t "state" that at all. ***So you now want to call me liar, just because I said something which you don't want to hear. Typical. As for the manual, I've already explained it to you - again, it's not a message you want to hear.
Okay, how about this: I lied about the manual. I lied about the friend. I don't have any friends. Your A11 is the best DVD player ever built - there is no better. Happy now?
> > *** That's not racist. It’s a truism. *** Now that is truly offensive. < <I’m not racist. I’ve lived in the Far East for over 15 years. I made many friends there. The real bigots in this "PC" world are those who castigate and name-call others who dare speak out about what is true.
> > Again, you can't have it both ways. Either your walls reflect, or they don't. < <Ever done the ripple-tank experiment in your high-school physics class?
Experiment: Put the motorised wave source in a corner of the tank, and what you get a smooth linear progression of waves radiating out diagonally (i.e. over the longest uninterrupted distance -- i.e. the 'hypotenuse'), and also along the walls. Not straight into them as would happen if the source was in the middle of the tank.
N.B. Tellingly, it is precisely this word "linear" which REL uses about the sub's response when placed in the corner. And I could even go to the extreme of having my walls coated in acoustically dead polystyrene foam, and the corner sub placement principle would be just as valid.
> > As for the manual, I've already explained it to you - again, it's not a message you want to hear. < <What you implied was written in the manual was wrong. Plain and simple. Your phrase about it did not exist in any shape or form.
*** I’m not racist. I’ve lived in the Far East for over 15 years. I made many friends there. ***Sure. And I'll bet your Japanese friends are supporting your statements 100%.
*** Ever done the ripple-tank experiment in your high-school physics class? ***
Ever measured your room, and the distance it requires to reproduce a 20 Hz sound signal (taking the speed of sound into account)? Once you've done so, do you think a 20 Hz signal would even fit into your room without reflection?
*** What you implied was written in the manual was wrong. Plain and simple. ***
Or perhaps you just don't want to accept what it's trying to tell you. Plain and simple.
> > Sure. And I'll bet your Japanese friends are supporting your statements 100%. < <But they won’t be trying to decipher the Jap-to-Eng translation. ;-)
> > do you think a 20 Hz signal would even fit into your room without reflection? < <Doesn’t need to. In fact, no in-room reflection is best with the way REL ‘loads’ their subs, and they are designed to work ‘down low’ in smaller listening spaces.
But here’s the killer: Check this headphone freq response:
http://www.sennheiserusa.com/newsite/pdfs/hd580.pdf
Now C’mon, you really don’t need to hold that 40+metres away from your ears to hear the bass!! :)
*** Check this headphone freq response:
http://www.sennheiserusa.com/newsite/pdfs/hd580.pdf
Now C’mon, you really don’t need to hold that 40+metres away from your ears to hear the bass!! :) ***there's a difference between specs and reality.
I have the HD600, which is superior to the HD580, and i can assure you the bass response is not flat down to 12. In fact, most owners on head-fi.org report you only get good bass down to about 40 Hz or so.
Rather than arguing, suggest you measure and check the actual bass response in your room for yourself. Don't be surprised if it's not as good as you think. And while you're there, you can also check impulse response.
Hey, have you seen the film "Lost In Translation", about this poor western chap all by himself in Japan? Many a telling point made in that film! Go and see it if you haven't already.But talking of Japanese consumer goods, a UK contact of mine tells me one of the biggest problems his people face, is that their company's technical engineering wizards in Tokyo don't speak a single word of English. So, trying to get answers to technical issues (esp those which are not covered in the supplied manual), is very difficult indeed.
So they end up not bothering waiting for an answer from their colleagues in Tokyo, and instead hook-up the machine in their own UK lab to see how it behaves in particular circumstances. And if that doesn't provide the right answers, then it's just a case of: "we've tried our best, but we can't do anything more for you sir".
*** Hey, have you seen the film "Lost In Translation", about this poor western chap all by himself in Japan? ***Yeah, i quite like the movie. It was amusing. But a colleague of mine who has recently returned from fifteen years in Japan says it's not like that in reality. Maybe he was just lucky. Then again, maybe I just made him up, just like the other friend!
*** a UK contact of mine tells me one of the biggest problems his people face, is that their company's technical engineering wizards in Tokyo don't speak a single word of English. ***
That hasn't been my experience with Denon, Pioneer, Sony or Panasonic. Their command of English is not perfect, but it's completely understandable, and they can read English just fine. At one stage I was tracking a distortion problem on my Denon amp, and the local distributor put me in contact with an engineer in Japan and we were exchanging emails. He had no problems understanding my emails and was very helpful in trying to replicate the problem. In the end, it turned out to be because i've connected more than one device to the line outputs - on the Denon, they all share a common bus, so any issues with one component will affect all components.
Similarly with the other companies, I've had no issues dealing with Japan, on voice or over email. A lot of design work now happens in the US, UK and Australia for many Japanese companies. I've read service bulletins from Sony and Panasonic, and they are written in perfect English because the Japanese employ English-speaking people to write this stuff (note - these are not necessarily Westerners - plenty of Japanese speak good English)
Same thing with the Panasonic manual. It seems to me it's written in grammatical English, and provides minimal, accurate information. That's why your statement is racist - there is absolutely no truth in it, you just like saying it because it makes you feel better, and it gives you an excuse for not accepting what the manual is saying in plain and simple English.
*** So they end up not bothering waiting for an answer from their colleagues in Tokyo ***
I could make a racist comment here about British arrogance and apathy, but I won't :-)
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