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In Reply to: Q : Why are fans of The Donnas not having problems playing their DualDiscs? ... A : They are not SACD cheerleaders. ... posted by ZS KEKL on November 05, 2004 at 21:36:36:
. . . and we're not hearing any cacophony of complaints from the fans regarding the CD side.
Follow Ups:
Picked one up at my local Target (there were lots of them). BTW, no Dualdisc display, they were just mixed in with the other CDs in "New Releases" display case. The jewel case has a plastic sleeve that says "DualDisc" in big letters, but you had to look directly at the CD itself to see it.Anyway, I tested the Dualdisc in the following players -
CD:
- Aiwa Boombox with tray CD player, played with no problems *
- Alesis Masterlink CD recorder, played with no problems + *
- Arcam DV78 DVD-V player, played with no problems
- Compaq Computer CD-ROM drive, played with no problems @
- Fisher Boombox with top-load CD player, played with no problems
- Mazda Truck Factory slot-load CD player, played with no problems, got stuck when ejected *
- Philips portable CD player, played with no problems
- Pioneer Elite DV-45A "universal" player, played with no problems
- Pontiac Automobile Factory slot-load CD player, played with no problems *
- Sony DVP-NS999ES DVD-V/SACD player, played with no problems
- Volkswagen Automobile Factory slot-load CD player, played with no problems, ejected with difficulty ** These CD players worked, but transport noise was substantially higher than with "real" CDs during initial load and playback.
+ CD Recorder copied CD side with no problems
@ Ripped to iTunes with no problems
DVD-V and "Advanced Resolution":
- Arcam DV78 DVD-V player, played DVD-V content with no problems
- Pioneer Elite DV-45A, played DVD-V and "Advanced Resolution" content with no problems
- Sony DVP-NS999ES DVD-V/SACD player, played DVD-V content with no problemsThe recording is the typical over-compressed style of recording that seems so popular for rock/pop these days. Nearly zero dynamic range, and it kept the meters on my Masterlink pegged almost constantly.
On the mid-fi system where my universal player lives, I could not hear any difference between the CD tracks and the "Advanced Resolution" stereo tracks. I was quite puzzled, until I pulled up the Audio menu on the Pioneer. It told me that the "Advanced Resolution" stereo tracks are 16-bit. Sample rate is 88.2, bit depth 16. Coupled with the crappy recording, it's no wonder the CD and AR stereo tracks sounded the same.
The AR multi-channel tracks sounded only marginally better than the DD 5.1 tracks. The AR multi-channel tracks are 88.2/24 bit. With a better recording I'm sure there would be a more noticeable difference.
Even though the disc passed the playability tests, it's going to be returned tomorrow. The fact that it got stuck in the player of my pickup truck is bad - that's never happened with a CD before. I had to pry it out. It didn't quite get stuck in the player of my wife's VW Golf, but it was difficult to remove. I had to get a good grip on it and pull hard.
On top of that, it sounds like crap, and the "advanced resolution" doesn't seem to add much value because of that. Seems to me that the effort would have been better spent on something that would benefit from higher-than-CD resolution. I suspect that Warner chose this release because it was bound to be popular regardless. If I were in Dualdisc marketing, that's what I'd do.
I finally got the opportunity to return the Simple Plan disc to the store today. I bought it at my local Target, and had a bit of trepidation taking it back. Target's policy for returns of music or video media is:- Can only be returned for refund if it's unopened
- Opened, defective items can only be exchanged like for likeSo, I took it back and explained the problem with my truck's CD player. The manager of the store's Returns desk told me that normally they would do an exchange only since it was opened, but due to known issues with DualDiscs they would take it back and issue a refund.
I asked how many DualDiscs had been returned, and she said she didn't know, but she thought it was very few.
at least according to this article
- http://www.digitalmerging.la/archives/2004/11/dualdisc_technology_has_multiple_problems.html (Open in New Window)
Even though the DVD side has "Advanced Resolution" tracks on it, this is not mentioned ANYWHERE. On the back cover of the jewel case there is a DVD-Video logo, a Dolby Surround logo, an NTSC logo, and a DualDisc logo. No DVD-Audio logo, no MLP logo.There is a box that has "CD Side" and "DVD Side," with content lists, but the DVD side contents are listed only as:
- Video Content
- Entire Album in Surround Sound
- Computer Extras
- Web LinkFrom an audio POV, the only way anyone would ever know that there is more than Dolby Digital sound on the DVD side is if they put it into a DVD-Audio player.
Maybe to keep KEKLBOY from jumping around like a monkey on crack?I dunno.....
But in so far as marketing goes, and maybe its more to do where technology is generally heading, Hi-Rez seems to be a blip in the grander scheme of things audio.
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Probably because they don't figure folks need to know. As more and more DVD players have DVD-A MLP decoders in them, then more and more folks will see the "Advanced Resolution" menu when they put the disc in their machine.
If it has high resolution, as I said before DVD-Audio is at a big danger from DualDisc.
If you dig Simple Plan you by the disc.Normal people look for the artist name and album title.
They don't buy dsd or advanced resolution logo's.
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That is why I want to know if it has high resolution, that way I know which version to buy.I don't know who Simply Plan is but say for instance Chris Isaak's Heart Shaped World, which I own of regular CD came out on DualDisc and there is no mention of a high resolution soundtrack. And I took it home and it's just a regular CD like the one I already have this would be a total rip-off. That is why it is important to let the customer know what they are getting!
Just ask the stores sales person to show the discs contents. If it's hires there is a logo 'adavanced resolution' or DVD Audio on the cover or in the inlay booklet.Since you are able to participate in forums you can also find out about a release through forums and offical websites.
Mp3 trailers at web retailers like cdnow.com can give you an idea about the music on the album.
"Just ask the stores sales person to show the discs contents. If it's hires there is a logo 'adavanced resolution' or DVD Audio on the cover or in the inlay booklet."
Simple Plan's 16 bit 88.2ks is not 'advanced resolution'. Perhaps that's why there are no hires logo's on the cover.Now for the simple part.
If it doesn't show a logo then don't buy.Some of the disc produced for the test early this year had logo's to indicate hires content.
If that's the case, all of the 24/48 DVD-As/DualDiscs definitely aren't.
A doubling of the sample rate doubles the frequency range.
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F
I was pointing out the error in your assertion, but as usual it went right over your head.
No, 24 Bit 48kHz is low resolution, you have less ambiance and a MUCH courser sound at 48kHz than you do a 96kHz. And the smoothest most relaxed sound of all is at 192kHz. Sampling frequency is just as important as bit depth. All you have to do is listen to the difference between the three.Resolution is in the bits and the Sampling Frequency. The minimum for high resolution is 88.2kHz 24 Bit, anything lower is too compromised.
"A doubling of the sample rate doubles the frequency range.
Only half correct it also doubles the amount of samples per second, twice as many samples per second equals twice the resolution.
*** Simple Plan's 16 bit 88.2ks is not 'advanced resolution'. ***If you look at Warner's "Missy Elliot: miss E ... so addictive", the back cover says "Advanced Resolution Stereo" in addition to Advanced Resolution surround and Dolby Digital.
The "Advanced Resolution Stereo" is a 44.1kHz 16bit track.
So if 44.1/16 qualifies as "advanced resolution stereo" then i would suggest so does 88.2/16.
F.
check out the disc specs yourself (after all, you claimed that you own "nearly all" the warner titles, so you must have this in your collection).
So I must be smarter. :)If this disc release is youre 'proof' to you I fear the worst.
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Obviously the CD layer does not seem to be the big issue that some 'prophets of doom' would have us believe (and that includes playability in Pioneer & Sony hardware)b.t.w. my dad has a new Volkswagen -- with a CD changer in the back rather than slot loader in the front. His previous Volkswagen had a slot loader. Looks like slot loaders are being replaced by multi-changers.
Hopefully this will help quiet both sides of the stupid argument over players - the anti-Dualdisc side that is shouting with glee over the disclaimers, and the pro-Dualdisc side that is heaping scorn on the player manufacturers who issued those disclaimers.I understand why Sony and Pioneer, two of the biggest producers of players, would issue disclaimers. Dualdisc IS a non-standard format - the "CD" side isn't a Compact Disc, and the DVD side isn't DVD Forum-approved. Best for the player manufacturers to put out a disclaimer so they won't be sued for any possible compatibility problems, although I think Pioneer's disclaimer in particular was a bit over the top.
I don't currently have a vehicle with a changer, but I know how the magazine-based car changers work, so I suspect there will be few problems with them. The only issue I would be concerned with is scratches on the DVD side of the disc. Some of the magazine-based changers are rather hard on the disc "label" surface" because they've been able to get away with it in the past.
I don't think slot-loaders are going away though. My wife's Golf has a slot-loader, as I mentioned, but the changer was an option (2001 model year). My 2004 Pontiac company car has a slot-loader, changer optional. The most recent version (released this year) of the extremely popular Bose Wave Radio is a slot-loader.
Problems with slot-loaders is of great concern. As I mentioned, I had no problems with the Pontiac's player in that regard, but when the disc got stuck in my Mazda (2002 model year) I was rather upset. You should know that in the interest of science I went through the insert/play/hit eject/pry it out routine several times to ensure that the first time wasn't a fluke :-)
I'm also not quite sure what to make of the increased transport noise on some of the CD players. I'm very familiar with how the transport reacts on a couple of them, and it certainly sounded a lot like what happens when a marginal or damaged CD is played and the transport must engage error correction. The fact that the disc played anyway, with no audible glitches or issues, would seem to ameliorate that though.
I think the Dualdisc still needs some work on the thickness, but actual playability does not appear to be a problem.
Oh, and the limited capacity of Dualdisc doesn't appear to be a problem for this relase - the music content is all of 38 minutes long. This release would easily fit on a single LP :-)
measure the disc thickness with a caliper?If it's within 1.5 mm then its within the readbook spec and should not pose a problem getting stuck in a CD player.
DVD players should be able to cope with 1.8mm (DVD-18) and if a DualDisc get stuck it's very sloppy player design.
The additional whirring noises could be the sound the lens focussing actions produces due to extra focussing activity because of the thinner redbook layer thickness.
I have three calipers, two metric and one inch.Metric: the disc measures 1.6002mm thick on one, 1.6001mm on the other.
Inch: the disc measures 0.0629in.
So, it's not within CD spec. Given the results I had, that's not surprising.
Looks like the production proces isn't optimized or entirely within tolerances required.This is bound to give some trouble in some types of slot loader mechanisms. (As espected, see DualDisc disclaimer)
Perhaps it's a matter of 'let's how much we can get away with' before spending on the optimizing of the production lines.
Very sloppy.
... apart from some problems ejecting the disc? that's good news.i'm surprised you were able to rip the disc. i thought the cd layer was supposed to be copy protected?
88.2/16 makes sense given the material is highly compressed.
unfortunately, i won't be buying this disc as the content isn't really to my tastes. hopefully warner will soon release a title that i actually want to buy soon ...
The only player I was not able to try it on is my Sony SCD-1, because the SCD-1 is at Sony right now getting the firmware update. I do wonder whether the SCD-1 would have issues in playback though - as I mentioned to Martin, on several of my CD players it appeared as though the player was engaging error correction to play the disc. Although I have not had any problems with "real" CDs on the SCD-1, even ones with mild scratches, the SCD-1 is rated as only "fair" in its ability to play damaged CDs according to Stereophile .OTOH, I've found that the transport in my Alesis Masterlink is extremely sensitive to scratches and fingerprints when it does 4x copying, and it had no problems with the DualDisc in that mode.
As I mentioned, no problems ripping to iTunes. The rip averaged about 4x.
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" . . . The recent Simple Plan release as a single $18.99 DualDisc title is outselling the same content in an $18.99 double CD/DVD package two to one." -- Robin Hurley, Warner Music Group.
But what do they know?Also - amazon.com shows the CD/DVD version as #10 on their "Alternative" top sellers list, and the Dualdisc version as #54.
Is the Dualdisc a limited run like The Donnas? If so, then it would not be possible to reach "platinum" status with the Dualdisc. "Platinum" = 1 million sold. If it's not a limited run, then kudos to Warner for finally taking a risk.
The CD/DVD combo package has 101 as sales rank at amazon.com. There are 198 consumer reviews of this product.The DualDisc has 3191 as sales rank. It has 7 consumer reviews.
It's just a data point. Maybe things are different at other vendors.
Amazon.com is not a downtown record store.
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