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I have noticed that several SACD cheerleaders are going from audio forum to audio forum , making posts that imply that DualDiscs are unplayable in many / most players .These SACD cheerleaders' comments are nonsense .
As I have previously posted in DVD-Audiobahn , I have not had any problems playing the appropriate sides of any of my DualDiscs in any players I have tried them in .
Since the October 26th release of The Donnas - Gold Medal DualDisc , I have been checking The Donnas Forum for reactions to the DualDisc . Over there , just about the only complaint about the DualDisc is the last song on the CD side ( the 11th song ) , cuts off at the 53 second mark ( where there is a known defect due to a mastering problem completely unrelated to the DualDisc format ) .
These fans of The Donnas seem to be having almost zero problems PLAYING their DualDiscs . The entire DVD side , and the first 10 songs , and the first 53 seconds of the 11th song , on the CD side , are playing properly in almost all of the wide variety of players owned by these people .
There are lots of topics posted at The Donnas Forum that include discussion of the PLAYING of the Gold Medal DualDisc . Feel free to read all of them . I have included a link . Click it . Then click on " All Things Donnas ". Currently , on page 4 , there is a topic " A bit of trouble with the CD " that has received over 60 responses .
It is obvious to me , that SACD cheerleaders , in numerous audio forums , are posting nonsense about DualDisc because they realize that their little SACD world is about to collapse , due to the advent of the much superior DualDisc .
LOL
ZS KEKL
- http://boards.atlanticrecords.com/artists/thedonnas/ubb.x?a+tpc&s=939107102&f=526100302&m=546105982 (Open in New Window)
Follow Ups:
. . .they were dressed up as cheerleaders and stripped naked halfway through the show.
I went to Target this evening, and there are no The Donnas Dualdiscs on the shelves. Only CDs.
nt
If you find some for sale, there is a secondary market.
Regards,
Geoff
You are a very ignorant person .If you had READ the posts made at The Donnas Forum , you would have been aware that many people own the DualDisc , and that it plays properly . However , I do realize that you may have seen those posts , but not understood them , due to your severe reading comprehension problems .
LOL
.
I really am not a fan of the Donnas. However if music I like turns up on Dual Disc, I certainly will be open to trying them.
nt
.
Well it says "Kiss Me"ZS is perfectly at home here, you guys are not,
His posts are constructive, yours are notWhy don't you guys take a hike on the highway?
I'm sure there's another Carmina Burana to discuss over there
Eric"Julian Dicks is everywhere.
It's like they've got eleven Dicks on the
field."
where are you when BS Heckle is raiding the Hi_Rez Hwy? An Eye for an Eye.
posting stupid jokes and moving in gangs is another story.At least ZS is never vulgar.
Best,
Eric"Julian Dicks is everywhere.
It's like they've got eleven Dicks on the
field."
And some believe ZS is vulgar, in a different way.It was all for a wee bit of fun.
nt
LOL.LOL.
LOL.
LOL.
LOL.
LOL.
Since you seem to like LOL I thought I may join you.
you're starting to bother me here.
I get carried away sometimes......
Yourself!Bawhahahahahahahahhahaw.
LOL.
. . . and we're not hearing any cacophony of complaints from the fans regarding the CD side.
Picked one up at my local Target (there were lots of them). BTW, no Dualdisc display, they were just mixed in with the other CDs in "New Releases" display case. The jewel case has a plastic sleeve that says "DualDisc" in big letters, but you had to look directly at the CD itself to see it.Anyway, I tested the Dualdisc in the following players -
CD:
- Aiwa Boombox with tray CD player, played with no problems *
- Alesis Masterlink CD recorder, played with no problems + *
- Arcam DV78 DVD-V player, played with no problems
- Compaq Computer CD-ROM drive, played with no problems @
- Fisher Boombox with top-load CD player, played with no problems
- Mazda Truck Factory slot-load CD player, played with no problems, got stuck when ejected *
- Philips portable CD player, played with no problems
- Pioneer Elite DV-45A "universal" player, played with no problems
- Pontiac Automobile Factory slot-load CD player, played with no problems *
- Sony DVP-NS999ES DVD-V/SACD player, played with no problems
- Volkswagen Automobile Factory slot-load CD player, played with no problems, ejected with difficulty ** These CD players worked, but transport noise was substantially higher than with "real" CDs during initial load and playback.
+ CD Recorder copied CD side with no problems
@ Ripped to iTunes with no problems
DVD-V and "Advanced Resolution":
- Arcam DV78 DVD-V player, played DVD-V content with no problems
- Pioneer Elite DV-45A, played DVD-V and "Advanced Resolution" content with no problems
- Sony DVP-NS999ES DVD-V/SACD player, played DVD-V content with no problemsThe recording is the typical over-compressed style of recording that seems so popular for rock/pop these days. Nearly zero dynamic range, and it kept the meters on my Masterlink pegged almost constantly.
On the mid-fi system where my universal player lives, I could not hear any difference between the CD tracks and the "Advanced Resolution" stereo tracks. I was quite puzzled, until I pulled up the Audio menu on the Pioneer. It told me that the "Advanced Resolution" stereo tracks are 16-bit. Sample rate is 88.2, bit depth 16. Coupled with the crappy recording, it's no wonder the CD and AR stereo tracks sounded the same.
The AR multi-channel tracks sounded only marginally better than the DD 5.1 tracks. The AR multi-channel tracks are 88.2/24 bit. With a better recording I'm sure there would be a more noticeable difference.
Even though the disc passed the playability tests, it's going to be returned tomorrow. The fact that it got stuck in the player of my pickup truck is bad - that's never happened with a CD before. I had to pry it out. It didn't quite get stuck in the player of my wife's VW Golf, but it was difficult to remove. I had to get a good grip on it and pull hard.
On top of that, it sounds like crap, and the "advanced resolution" doesn't seem to add much value because of that. Seems to me that the effort would have been better spent on something that would benefit from higher-than-CD resolution. I suspect that Warner chose this release because it was bound to be popular regardless. If I were in Dualdisc marketing, that's what I'd do.
I finally got the opportunity to return the Simple Plan disc to the store today. I bought it at my local Target, and had a bit of trepidation taking it back. Target's policy for returns of music or video media is:- Can only be returned for refund if it's unopened
- Opened, defective items can only be exchanged like for likeSo, I took it back and explained the problem with my truck's CD player. The manager of the store's Returns desk told me that normally they would do an exchange only since it was opened, but due to known issues with DualDiscs they would take it back and issue a refund.
I asked how many DualDiscs had been returned, and she said she didn't know, but she thought it was very few.
at least according to this article
- http://www.digitalmerging.la/archives/2004/11/dualdisc_technology_has_multiple_problems.html (Open in New Window)
Even though the DVD side has "Advanced Resolution" tracks on it, this is not mentioned ANYWHERE. On the back cover of the jewel case there is a DVD-Video logo, a Dolby Surround logo, an NTSC logo, and a DualDisc logo. No DVD-Audio logo, no MLP logo.There is a box that has "CD Side" and "DVD Side," with content lists, but the DVD side contents are listed only as:
- Video Content
- Entire Album in Surround Sound
- Computer Extras
- Web LinkFrom an audio POV, the only way anyone would ever know that there is more than Dolby Digital sound on the DVD side is if they put it into a DVD-Audio player.
Maybe to keep KEKLBOY from jumping around like a monkey on crack?I dunno.....
But in so far as marketing goes, and maybe its more to do where technology is generally heading, Hi-Rez seems to be a blip in the grander scheme of things audio.
.
Probably because they don't figure folks need to know. As more and more DVD players have DVD-A MLP decoders in them, then more and more folks will see the "Advanced Resolution" menu when they put the disc in their machine.
If it has high resolution, as I said before DVD-Audio is at a big danger from DualDisc.
If you dig Simple Plan you by the disc.Normal people look for the artist name and album title.
They don't buy dsd or advanced resolution logo's.
.
That is why I want to know if it has high resolution, that way I know which version to buy.I don't know who Simply Plan is but say for instance Chris Isaak's Heart Shaped World, which I own of regular CD came out on DualDisc and there is no mention of a high resolution soundtrack. And I took it home and it's just a regular CD like the one I already have this would be a total rip-off. That is why it is important to let the customer know what they are getting!
Just ask the stores sales person to show the discs contents. If it's hires there is a logo 'adavanced resolution' or DVD Audio on the cover or in the inlay booklet.Since you are able to participate in forums you can also find out about a release through forums and offical websites.
Mp3 trailers at web retailers like cdnow.com can give you an idea about the music on the album.
"Just ask the stores sales person to show the discs contents. If it's hires there is a logo 'adavanced resolution' or DVD Audio on the cover or in the inlay booklet."
Simple Plan's 16 bit 88.2ks is not 'advanced resolution'. Perhaps that's why there are no hires logo's on the cover.Now for the simple part.
If it doesn't show a logo then don't buy.Some of the disc produced for the test early this year had logo's to indicate hires content.
If that's the case, all of the 24/48 DVD-As/DualDiscs definitely aren't.
A doubling of the sample rate doubles the frequency range.
.
F
I was pointing out the error in your assertion, but as usual it went right over your head.
No, 24 Bit 48kHz is low resolution, you have less ambiance and a MUCH courser sound at 48kHz than you do a 96kHz. And the smoothest most relaxed sound of all is at 192kHz. Sampling frequency is just as important as bit depth. All you have to do is listen to the difference between the three.Resolution is in the bits and the Sampling Frequency. The minimum for high resolution is 88.2kHz 24 Bit, anything lower is too compromised.
"A doubling of the sample rate doubles the frequency range.
Only half correct it also doubles the amount of samples per second, twice as many samples per second equals twice the resolution.
*** Simple Plan's 16 bit 88.2ks is not 'advanced resolution'. ***If you look at Warner's "Missy Elliot: miss E ... so addictive", the back cover says "Advanced Resolution Stereo" in addition to Advanced Resolution surround and Dolby Digital.
The "Advanced Resolution Stereo" is a 44.1kHz 16bit track.
So if 44.1/16 qualifies as "advanced resolution stereo" then i would suggest so does 88.2/16.
F.
check out the disc specs yourself (after all, you claimed that you own "nearly all" the warner titles, so you must have this in your collection).
So I must be smarter. :)If this disc release is youre 'proof' to you I fear the worst.
.
Obviously the CD layer does not seem to be the big issue that some 'prophets of doom' would have us believe (and that includes playability in Pioneer & Sony hardware)b.t.w. my dad has a new Volkswagen -- with a CD changer in the back rather than slot loader in the front. His previous Volkswagen had a slot loader. Looks like slot loaders are being replaced by multi-changers.
Hopefully this will help quiet both sides of the stupid argument over players - the anti-Dualdisc side that is shouting with glee over the disclaimers, and the pro-Dualdisc side that is heaping scorn on the player manufacturers who issued those disclaimers.I understand why Sony and Pioneer, two of the biggest producers of players, would issue disclaimers. Dualdisc IS a non-standard format - the "CD" side isn't a Compact Disc, and the DVD side isn't DVD Forum-approved. Best for the player manufacturers to put out a disclaimer so they won't be sued for any possible compatibility problems, although I think Pioneer's disclaimer in particular was a bit over the top.
I don't currently have a vehicle with a changer, but I know how the magazine-based car changers work, so I suspect there will be few problems with them. The only issue I would be concerned with is scratches on the DVD side of the disc. Some of the magazine-based changers are rather hard on the disc "label" surface" because they've been able to get away with it in the past.
I don't think slot-loaders are going away though. My wife's Golf has a slot-loader, as I mentioned, but the changer was an option (2001 model year). My 2004 Pontiac company car has a slot-loader, changer optional. The most recent version (released this year) of the extremely popular Bose Wave Radio is a slot-loader.
Problems with slot-loaders is of great concern. As I mentioned, I had no problems with the Pontiac's player in that regard, but when the disc got stuck in my Mazda (2002 model year) I was rather upset. You should know that in the interest of science I went through the insert/play/hit eject/pry it out routine several times to ensure that the first time wasn't a fluke :-)
I'm also not quite sure what to make of the increased transport noise on some of the CD players. I'm very familiar with how the transport reacts on a couple of them, and it certainly sounded a lot like what happens when a marginal or damaged CD is played and the transport must engage error correction. The fact that the disc played anyway, with no audible glitches or issues, would seem to ameliorate that though.
I think the Dualdisc still needs some work on the thickness, but actual playability does not appear to be a problem.
Oh, and the limited capacity of Dualdisc doesn't appear to be a problem for this relase - the music content is all of 38 minutes long. This release would easily fit on a single LP :-)
measure the disc thickness with a caliper?If it's within 1.5 mm then its within the readbook spec and should not pose a problem getting stuck in a CD player.
DVD players should be able to cope with 1.8mm (DVD-18) and if a DualDisc get stuck it's very sloppy player design.
The additional whirring noises could be the sound the lens focussing actions produces due to extra focussing activity because of the thinner redbook layer thickness.
I have three calipers, two metric and one inch.Metric: the disc measures 1.6002mm thick on one, 1.6001mm on the other.
Inch: the disc measures 0.0629in.
So, it's not within CD spec. Given the results I had, that's not surprising.
Looks like the production proces isn't optimized or entirely within tolerances required.This is bound to give some trouble in some types of slot loader mechanisms. (As espected, see DualDisc disclaimer)
Perhaps it's a matter of 'let's how much we can get away with' before spending on the optimizing of the production lines.
Very sloppy.
... apart from some problems ejecting the disc? that's good news.i'm surprised you were able to rip the disc. i thought the cd layer was supposed to be copy protected?
88.2/16 makes sense given the material is highly compressed.
unfortunately, i won't be buying this disc as the content isn't really to my tastes. hopefully warner will soon release a title that i actually want to buy soon ...
The only player I was not able to try it on is my Sony SCD-1, because the SCD-1 is at Sony right now getting the firmware update. I do wonder whether the SCD-1 would have issues in playback though - as I mentioned to Martin, on several of my CD players it appeared as though the player was engaging error correction to play the disc. Although I have not had any problems with "real" CDs on the SCD-1, even ones with mild scratches, the SCD-1 is rated as only "fair" in its ability to play damaged CDs according to Stereophile .OTOH, I've found that the transport in my Alesis Masterlink is extremely sensitive to scratches and fingerprints when it does 4x copying, and it had no problems with the DualDisc in that mode.
As I mentioned, no problems ripping to iTunes. The rip averaged about 4x.
.
" . . . The recent Simple Plan release as a single $18.99 DualDisc title is outselling the same content in an $18.99 double CD/DVD package two to one." -- Robin Hurley, Warner Music Group.
But what do they know?Also - amazon.com shows the CD/DVD version as #10 on their "Alternative" top sellers list, and the Dualdisc version as #54.
Is the Dualdisc a limited run like The Donnas? If so, then it would not be possible to reach "platinum" status with the Dualdisc. "Platinum" = 1 million sold. If it's not a limited run, then kudos to Warner for finally taking a risk.
The CD/DVD combo package has 101 as sales rank at amazon.com. There are 198 consumer reviews of this product.The DualDisc has 3191 as sales rank. It has 7 consumer reviews.
It's just a data point. Maybe things are different at other vendors.
Amazon.com is not a downtown record store.
I am both an SACD supporter (over 300+ SACDs in my collection) and a DVD-Audio supporter (over 100+ DVD-Audio discs in my collection).I have the Donnas DualDisc, and the Simple Plan DualDisc, and NEITHER play in any of my home CD players. I cannot play the CD layer in either of my Sony CD/SACD players (XA777ES or C333ES) nor will it play effectively in my Denon 3800 DVD-Audio player. The kicker was that both DualDiscs won't play in my daughter's plain old CD boombox. On a "positive" note - the DualDiscs do play in two portable CD Walkman as well as my car CD players.
I support and buy many DVD-Audio discs and I am very happy with those I have, and the DualDisc's DVD-Audio side play fine in my Denon 3800. But the format was designed to play in CD players, which I have more problems than not. So please don't say I am posting 'nonsense' about the CD layer of the DualDisc. The problems I am having are real, and I don't like it.
In my estimation DualDisc is a poor format to succeed DVD-Audio. I would much prefer a DVD-Audio disc and separate CD in one package (as opposed to what we have gotten).
My Denon DVD-3800 was pretty unreliable too -- rejecting all sorts of discs and skipping on numerous media whenever it encountered the slightest geometrical variation.(And by all accounts the Sony machines don't have the best record either.)
and I CANNOT get these DualDiscs to play in my XA777ES or C333ES. Horrible mechanical noises, inability to lock on to the CD - if it does the player locks up.I tell you.... These discs will not play in my Sony CD/SACD players.
Weird that other can play them in the same models with no problems.!!!
It works in mine fine! I'm -really- wondering if this is *disc to disc* variability versus players, maybe I just have a *really good DualDisc* ?It's very strange, my XA777ES and C333ES has no problems at all!
The DVD-A Side is 192kHz 24 Bit glorious 2 channel Stereo with full resolution as there is NO 2 to 1 lossless compression as this is the only thing on the DVD-A Side NO Dolby Digital, NO DTS. No compressed sound lossless or lossy.The DVD-V Side is 96kHz 24 Bit glorious 2 channel Stereo with the maximum resolution in the DVD-V format and also NO compression and NO Dolby Digital or DTS on this side either!
So Classic Records gives you 2 versions each with the maximum sound afforded by each format DVD-A and DVD-V 2 sided disc.
NO VIDEO, NO JUNK LOSSY FORMATS (Dolby Digital or DTS) just great sound. THIS IS THE CORRECT WAY TO MAKE A 2 SIDED DISC.
DualDisc is a BAD JOKE at the expense of DVD-Audio listeners. They are stealing your format and DUMBING IT DOWN because it is primarly a VIDEO format and can only have a single layer on the DVD side if even a few Videos are included there is NO room for very high resolution Audio, most will be 48kHz 24 Bit for the Surround Sound, and many will not even have a high resolution 2 channel stereo track, and one only has 16 Bit for the 2 channel track as they ran out of space to make it 24 Bit like the surround track.
So go ahead and dream about DualDisc, but the final joke is on you. As DualDisc is going to KILL HIGH RESOLUTION DVD-Audio. If you prefer 48kHz that is fine for you. I prefer 192kHz 24 Bit and to a lesser degree 96kHz 24 Bit I will have nothing to do the with this DREADFUL DualDisc!
DualDisc is crass for the Masses, I much prefer the REAL thing: High Resolution DVD-Audio, HDADs, DADs and SACDs.
Why did you give up being a DVD-Audio cheerleader to be a DualDisc cheerleader? I would think DVD-Audio cheerleading would be more convincing!
What the heck, let's start a flame war:Have you heard Graham Nash's "Songs for Survivors" or Beck's "Sea Change"? These are fantastic sounding disks at lowly 48/24.
They might sound even better at 96/24, but if I were a sample-rate snob, I would have missed out on these two gems.
I think the audible difference between 96 and 192 is virtually non-existent and most of the preferences people have for 192 would disappear in double-blind tests.
Disclaimer: I base these opinions on my 40-something year-old ears and my mid-fi equipment.
But when people like Elliot Scheiner (who I figure has pretty good equipment and ears) indicates that going from 96 to 192 isn't a significant difference and that most of the benefit of 96/24 comes from the 24 (bit size)and not the sample rate, at the very least I conclude that for most of us, going out of our way to move from 96/24 to 192/24 provides very little difference outside of placebo effect.
I understand that for the people who feel either it's vinyl or it's garbage and have invested in esoteric speaker wire with unobtainium-gas filled isolation chambers, it's comforting to know that you are maxing out the sample rate just in case there is something that might be captured by that overhead.
BTW, The one dualdisc I own is 96/24 and has played in every player I've slipped it in. (about 15 different types of players)
I'm very difficult to offend so I look forward to any and all responses.
nt
What is non-REAL High resolution?
Classic Records only has 10 "HDAD" titles. 192 KHz 24-bit transfers from tired analog tapes aren't really going to deliver..."the maximum sound afforded by each format." They might as well be 48 KHz 24-bit transfers.
192kHz side is sonically superior in every way to the 96kHz, these are great sounding master tapes, and on the 192kHz side we should be hearing very close to what the master tape sounds like."tired old analog tapes" I don't think so! and 48kHz would not sound that much better than a CD, NO to bring out ALL the sound at least 96kHz is needed and 192kHz is heavenly!
Try a couple and you will be singing a different tune, Analog master tapes can be quite good!
If it's not real hi-rez that won't be a big difference between it and a CD, it is for the masses, but OK with me, and not something I would buy like a nice hi-rez DVD-A
x
I do wonder how a certain "Bmoura" manages to know instantly of these advisories the moment they appear (and no matter how deeply they are buried on a company's website, and which all -- three so far -- read quite similarly).Truly no offence meant, but I am naturally curious as to why (and how) the honorable gentleman -- who never normally writes about DVD-Audio related issues -- evidently seems to be devoting what must be an enormous amount of personal time into this one issue?
Did he send a mass-mailer to all the OEMs? And is he now looking for the outcome in terms of a statement from each OEM?
Apologies in advance if I've got completely the wrong end of the proverbial stick -- so to speak -- but my eyebrows are somewhat raised at this point.
Is sparse contributions on the Quad forum indicate that he is just guessing too.
He cunningly spins tidbits he gets into news items.Also notice that he has a cunning way to generate at least three news item about some release news.
It usually goes along these lines:
xxxx announced the release of A.
Coming this week the previously announced A will be released.
This week xxxx continues the announced release schedule.
Today xxxx released A.
Looks like Pioneer is worried they may get a flood of old DV563A's (with the unupdated ROM) back from users playing DVD-A on Dualdiscs.
Answer: Tell them the players are incompatable with dualdisc, even though the problem has nothing to do with dualdisc. I have an updated 563A and the 2 dualdiscs I have tried played flawlessly, as they did on my other payers, incuding a slot-loading car player.
... works fine in all of my players.You can try to pigeonhole me if you want. I buy whatever DVD-A titles I can get my hands on, and I don't think that my "little SACD world is going to collapse", either.
It's been several years now, and the sky has not yet fallen.
XA777ES. DV47Ai. Just got a Denon 3910.
I go "from board to board" because i'm interested in both formats and am not petty and partisan to the point where I can't enjoy hi-rez simply because it "isn't on my team".
I'm mostly an SACD person, but I have NOTHING bad to say about DVD-A.
And let me re-state:
The Donnas DualDisc works in: (CD side)
*My Sony XA777ES (sacd player)
*My Sony C333ES (sacd changer)
*My Sony CE775 (sacd changer)
*My Sony CDP-101 (first CD player ever released)
*My Sony 910 (mobile ES car unit)as well as: (both sides)
*My Pioneer DV47Ai.
*My Denon 3910.
... I of course do not agree tha the dual disc is "much superior" or "clearly superior" to Hybrid SACD. Only you would make such a statement because you're fanatically married to a type of little shiny disc.
Do I think it's inferior? No, not at all. Re: Not one bit.
Which is better? I don't know, do you prefer to fly on an Airbus or a Boeing? Both are better than walking. A CD is the equivalent of walking.
nt
for whatever reason it will not play for me in those same players.I have both the XA777ES and C333ES and the Donnas DualDisc will not play in either of those players. It is very curious as to why your copy plays in the same exact player where my disc will not play????
I wonder what gives??
I would love for this disc to play in my players, but after hearing the mechanical noises and the way the players acted after trying to play both the Donnas and Simple Plan DualDiscs, I am hesitant to keep trying.
Are there different pressing plants? Maybe we should compare this?The only identifying mark i can see on the pressing of the disc itself, is, between the band that says "DVD" and the hole, there is an imprint that says "M1S6". The spine simply says "The Donnas gold medal 83715-2 atlantic"
So, I'm not sure... I would go out and buy another one just to see if it varies, but you can't do that anymore, heh.
Please Z, this was pathetic even for your low standards.Not to mention the warnings by both Pioneer and Sony regrading Dualdisc. Looks like you backed another loser. So fitting for you.
LOL.
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