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In Reply to: Re: according to this article: DVD-Audio's would sell on average 3 times as many per title than SACD as posted by Martin419 on October 29, 2004 at 09:37:23:
What's to listen to??? There are world-class orchestras and regional orchestras; not that all regional orchestras are bad, but if one has a choice: SACD Mahler with MTT/SFO, Chailly/Concertgebouw; or The Utah Community Orchestra on Vanguard DVDA? Vaughan Williams on Vanguard with the Utah again, or with Hickox/LSO on Chandos, (though PCM originals--for the love of God make the future Chandos/Hickox Sea Symphony and Symphony 7 releases DSD masters.) Silverline's "Romantic Classical Moments series? No. Grieg on Naxos, via PCM to SACD, or Grieg with Grieg's own orchestra on BIS DSD? The two Beethoven cycles on DVDA by big names Barenboim and Rattle were pretty-much panned. SACD has kept much of the same family of artists and engineers so that the jump wasn't so hard. With the release of MLP and RCA Living Presence, even the geezer brigade has jumped on to the SACD player band wagon, going by indications on another classical posting list, they're beginning to inquire about players. Are you ready for this? (Better sit down.) If the formats were reversed, and all the Classical SACD titles available to me today (now)were on DVDA, I would own a DVDA player. Sometimes things just turn out differently.
Follow Ups:
OK, summary:-My question: > > So which ones did you listen to then? < <
Your answer: None.
By the way, compared with Harnoncourt's Bach Passion on DVD-A, the so called 'editor's choice' Harnoncourt Mozart Requiem (Harmonia Mundi) SACD is unfortunate sounding: The brass section is shrill; low level details and ambience are buried under a sea of velvet, and the bass has about as much warmth as a piece of damp cardboard in a garden shed.
And that was your beloved 'pure' DSD.
b.t.w. I do like Harnoncourt as a conductor, and I like his musicians. But I don't care for any recordings ruined by backward DSD technology.
p.s. Another thing, the Harnoncourt SACD runs at about 55 mins -- close to SACD's maximum; But Harnonourt DVD-A runs nonstop for 2 hours, 45 mins! Then there's a video documentary too. Plus photo images. Plus catalog 5.1 hirez clips of other titles. etc. etc.
And get this:-
Two COMPLETE Beethoven cycles recorded in hirez 24/96 5.1 just for DVD-Audio . . .
1. DG/UMG: Abbado; Berliner Philharmoniker;
2. Warner: Barenboim; Berliner Staatskapelle,. . . versus zero in DSD/SACD.
The entire Handel's Messiah recorded in 96/24 just for DVD Audio by Arts Music . . .
. . . versus zero in DSD/SACD.
The entire (2hr 40 min) St Matthaus Passion recorded in 96/24 just for DVD Audio by Warner/Harnoncourt . . .
. . . versus zero in DSD/SACD.
3 Complete Beethoven symphony cycles on SACD:
Herbert von Karajan, Berlin Philharmonic on DGG SACD;
Kurt Masur, Gewandhaus Orchester Leipzig on PentaTone Classics SACD;
Jaap van Zweden, Städtischer Musikverein Düsseldorf Residentie on Praga Digitals SACDPlus tons of individual Beethoven SACDs (see link)
Also 2 complete Handel Messiah's: Paul McCrees & Gabrieli Consort & Players on Archiv Produktion SACD and Anders Ohrwall & Members of the Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra The Stockholm Bach Choir on FIM SACD
I couldn't find St Matthaus Passion, is it spelled correctly and who is the composer?
3 of the 4 you said were not available on SACD are and many with mulitple versions.
Also if PURE DSD SACDs do not sound great on your system, at least the equal of 24 Bit 192kHz THEN SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH YOU SACD PLAYBACK.
PURE DSD DOES NOT USUALLY SOUND THE WAY YOU DESCRIBE Harnoncourt Mozart Requiem (Harmonia Mundi) SACD as sounding: "The brass section is shrill; low level details and ambience are buried under a sea of velvet, and the bass has about as much warmth as a piece of damp cardboard in a garden shed." Do your other Pure DSD SACDs sound like this? if so you have a real problem as I have over 100 PURE DSD SACDs. And the PURE classical DSD recordings especially from Telarc, Delos and BIS sound very, very real and exciting. If there is any shrillness or any velvet fog in any of these it is YOUR EQUIPMENT not the recording. Are you maybe playing the CD layer in error? Something is terribly wrong somewhere. I will personally have no problem avoiding this Mozart SACD as I don't like Mozart, but I still have not found a bad sounding PURE DSD SACD, I have found some bad SACDs but they were mastered from lower resolution PCM.
Happy listening,
Teresa
1. HANDEL MESSIAH:-~~ McCrees & Gabrieli Consort & Players on Archiv Produktion SACD
This is a ‘faux-surround’ 48kHz recording! And it needs three separate discs. And it’s $38!
Oh, and quote from SA-CD.net:- "My main problem with McCreesh’s conducting is his inconsistent tempi, some choral numbers are far too fast and some slow music is dragging. Fine group of soloist it let down by wobbly Bernarda Fink’s alto, especially annoying in "O thou that tallest good tidings to Zion" (and at what speed!). Her phrasing and English pronunciation are doggy to say the least. Shame, as she has some of the most beautiful and intimate music to sing."
~~ Anders Ohrwall & Members of the Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra The Stockholm Bach Choir on FIM SACD
Teresa, this is neither multichannel nor digital recording. And it’s fairly old. And on Amazon it’s a whopping $56 !!! And please note that for "technical reasons", the soloists could only take their places on a platform to the left in front of the violinists. Therefore, in your stereo system, you will hear them primarily from the left.
2. BEETHOVEN SYMPHONIES:-
~~ Herbert von Karajan, Berlin Philharmonic on DGG SACDThis is old.
~~ Kurt Masur, Gewandhaus Orchester Leipzig on PentaTone Classics SACD;
ditto
~~ Jaap van Zweden, Städtischer Musikverein Düsseldorf Residentie on Praga Digitals SACD
Jaap van WHO??! ;-)
quotes from SA-CD.net:-
" . . . it all sounds a bit homogenous to me, - after an indifferent first, up to and including the 8th, all the symphonies sound as though they were written at the same time. I don't get the sense of progression in Beethoven's composing style . . ."
and:-
" . . . The ninth is recorded live with mediocre soloists and in a pretty wiry, thin sound (whereas the sound for the rest is quite warm and rich if a little too close). It lacks pace and excitement . . ."
and:-
" . . . Jaap van Zweden's Beethoven cycle started off badly. His reading of the first symphony was awful. His tempi just didn't make sense and broke the work apart . . ."
and:-
" . . . It ain't the best Beethoven cycle out there, not even close."
> > If there is any shrillness or any velvet fog in any of these it is YOUR EQUIPMENT not the recording. < <Rubbish. The Denon -5900 in both "pure-direct" & "source direct" DSD mode with its big power supplies is as good as anything out there for around $2,000. I have separate m-ch pre-amp (in pure multichannel analog bypass mode), coupled to my 120w * 5ch power amp.
b.t.w. My amp & speakers perform with astounding clarity and soundstage when fed a good DVD-Audio recording. SACD is the problem.> > Are you maybe playing the CD layer in error? < <
Who do you take me for, Teresa?> > Something is terribly wrong somewhere. < <
Yep. And it ain't my system, nor my ears.Now Teresa, if you don’t mind, I’ll get back to my excellent high-resolution Abbado AND Barenboim cycles recorded for DVD-Audio. And also of course my full Messiah all on one high-resolution multichannel DVD-A. Plus all my other DVD-As.
Amazing, I only have 1 Beethoven recording: Symphony No. 9 - Runnicles, Atlanta Symphony Orchestra on Telarc SACD-60603. I may add Symphony No. 3, Symphony No. 6 and possibly No. 5, but I feel no need for all nine.I do have the complete Symphonies of Rachmaninoff and Gliere but I am not a completest. I pick and choose what I like best.
I did not mean to imply you couldn't tell the SACD from the CD layer, but your description of that SACD sounds exactly like how a CD would sound on an entry level player.
Also: FYI the best recordings in my collection are old: RCA Living Stereo SACDs and LPs, Mercury Living Presence SACDs and LPs. Even the recording I am listening to now is old: GERSHWIN: Complete Works for Orchestra and Piano and Orchestra and Classic Records 24/96 DAD, fantastic sound and superb music, you might not like it as it is 2 channel stereo. So far most of my DVD-Audios and DADs are 2 channel stereo's many recorded as early as the 60's.
Just so you know I prefer 2 channel stereo and Analog. As I find Analog originals (especially made on tubed reel to reel decks) to be the most realistic.
Happy listening,
TeresaP.S.: I don't like Handel's Messiah, it's not that I don't like religious music as I love Eric Bibb and other religious singers. I hate the singing and music in Handel's Messiah, the only Handel I like is the Royal Fireworks Music and to a lesser degree the Water Music.
> > I hate the singing and music in Handel's Messiah, the only Handel I like is the Royal Fireworks Music and to a lesser degree the Water Music < <Hold on Teresa. One minute you gloat about those supposed complete SACD 'cycles' of the Messiah & Beethoven on SACD, and now you respond like a kid throwing toys out of the pram.
I do not have to like them to know they exist. It's that simple.You were so wrong when you said DVD-Audio had 2 complete Beethoven cycles and SACD have NONE, when SACD actually has 3 complete Beethoven cycles.
You also said there was ZERO Handel Messiah's on SACD. Which was also off but a factor of 2!
I don't have to love something to spot an error or untruth. So it would be a good idea to check facts before claiming something does not exist.
And I like what I like and that is the whole of it.
The ones you mentioned were not recorded for SACD. So while they may be (or may not be) good performances, they don't count in my book. Any idiot can do a transfer of an old stereo recording to any format they want.In the same vein, I deliberately did not mention the other non-hirez recorded Beethoven cycles on DVD-Audio, as well as other Messiahs (e.g. the acclaimed Mormon Tabernacle one plus others on DVD-A.) — which by your logic would increase DVD-A’s lead even further. It’s plain to see that I’m talking about new recordings for the new formats.
For classical DVD-Audio, this means a 96/24 (or 88.2kHz/24bit)recording in discrete surround-sound. For SACD I would count a 88-96kHz/24bit or DSD recording in discrete surround-sound.
What I look for is performers I like and music I like and generally prefer classical music recorded during the golden age (mid 1950's - mid 1960's) and some of the better Analog recordings of the 1970's.Of the NEW recordings I prefer Telarc, BIS and others especially from DSD masters.
For DVD-Audio I am mostly looking for 192kHz 24 Bit 2 channel Stereo DVD-A's. For the master tape I prefer 2 Track 30ips or 15ips Analog played on a vintage tubed Reel to Reel directly to as high as resolution as possible 192kHz or DSD. My second choice of master tape is pure DSD, third choice is 192kHz 24 Bit original, forth choice is 96kHz 24 Bit original.
And of course I don't even look to see if it is MULTICHANNEL I look to see if it has a 2 CHANNEL STEREO MIX . And I do not discount any recording just because it is old. Sonically some of the very best sounding recordings are old tubed analog recordings.
But I serouisly thought you were gloting that DVD-Audio had complete Beethoven symphonies and Messiah's and SACD did not.
"Any idiot can do a transfer of an old stereo recording to any format they want."
Any idiot yes but it takes a superb transfer engineer to capture all the sound of a golden age recording and make it sound superb! Only a handful of people can do this.
Old Stereo recordings are my biggest interest in both DVD-Audio and SACD.
"Two COMPLETE Beethoven cycles recorded in hirez 24/96 5.1 just for DVD-Audio . . .1. DG/UMG: Abbado; Berliner Philharmoniker;
2. Warner: Barenboim; Berliner Staatskapelle,. . . versus zero in DSD/SACD.
The entire Handel's Messiah recorded in 96/24 just for DVD Audio by Arts Music . . .
. . . versus zero in DSD/SACD.
"b.t.w. I do like Harnoncourt as a conductor, and I like his musicians. But I don't care for any recordings ruined by backward DSD technology."
"Backwards?" There is nothing more backwards than PCM. What an ironic thing to say. It doesn't even look or sound like music until it's decoded--very complicated and in-elegant--goes against nature to operate this way. It's replacement, DSD, *looks* like music before its decoding--a much short path--and the more realistic sound-quality shows. Don't take my word for it--heavy-hitter engineers choose it over high-fiz, (sorry, rez), PCM even though it cost more. Now *that* goes against nature!
The entire (2hr 40 min) St Matthaus Passion recorded in 96/24 just for DVD Audio by Warner/Harnoncourt . . .
. . . versus zero in DSD/SACD.
Don't you just hate that?"
Umm, do you know how tired the seasoned Classical collector is of Beethoven and Handel? The Rattle and Barenboim Beethoven was panned overall, there are better individual performances elsewhere. The '63 Karajan, as a performance, is considered on of the best--on DSD BTW. I'd rather have McCreesh in Handel in any case. You carefully avoid mentioning the performers on the Handel, I notice.
jdaniel@jps.net on PCM you say:-> > It doesn't even look or sound like music until it's decoded--very complicated and in-elegant--goes against nature to operate this way. It's replacement, DSD, *looks* like music before its decoding--a much short path--and the more realistic sound-quality shows. < <
Ha ha! What a load of nonsense you write. That's exactly what the DSD propaganda machine wants you to say. And you lap it all up like the faithful minion that you are. LOL
> > You carefully avoid mentioning the performers on the Handel, I notice. < <Not at all . . . read my review:-
http://www.highfidelityreview.com/reviews/review.asp?reviewnumber=10400465
Do you really think companies--Classical companies of all people--would spend *more* money for DSD than PCM if DSD *weren't* better?
Hyperion has just made its first pure DSD recordings, BTW. OH! I forgot, congrats on PCM hi-rez finally getting some front-page, global news coverage via Reuters--it's what we all dreamed would happen some day.... : )
> > Do you really think companies--Classical companies of all people--would spend *more* money for DSD than PCM if DSD *weren't* better? < <Your blind faith as to the infallibility of DSD is simply astounding.
> > Hyperion has just made its first pure DSD recordings < <
Wow. With whose help, I wonder? Anyway, I wonder how many hundreds of SA-CD discs they will sell? Methinks it's the Emperor's last set of clothes. No more new ones -- as the Emperor gasps his final breaths . . . ;-)
Anyway, are Archiv soloists & English Concert artists with their original instruments and the multi-label producer, Mr Lodovici, (as present on the Handel recording) beneath you? Well, are they?
OK, you win. We'll never get the big names like Simon Rattle and the Berlin Philharmonic on SACD. They're stuck with DVDA-oriented EMI. Wait a minute! The Berlin Phil has its own label now? On SACD??? And the first release is Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring????"And the "Sony's paying for it all, blah blah blah" is getting *so* tired. ; )
I told you, I'd buy DVDA titles *if* the same amount of brand-name Classical artists were available on DVDA. But they're not. And--my oh my--what is Meridian going to do with all those new $8K DVDA players...what were they thinking....
> > And--my oh my--what is Meridian going to do with all those new $8K DVDA players...what were they thinking.... < <This is what Meridian is DOING:- Making a cool $8k on each and every one. (As well as making me drool)
Now answer my question: Are Archiv soloists & English Concert artists with their original period instruments and the multi-label producer, Mr Lodovici, (as present on the Handel recording) beneath you?
p.s. Throughout this entire discourse, you conspicuously ignored the Berliner Phil Beethoven cycle I mentioned (and I'm not talking about Simon Rattle). Go on, try and jolt your very selective memory.
OK, Martin, fine; but my original point is getting lost in the details here. A handful of excellent performances on DVDA does *not* inspire me to spend even $250 on a DVDA player, and this is fatal for DVDA. I don't think the DVDA people have your best interests in mind: Universal, strangely, is putting out Chailly's Mahler 2nd on DVDA, and Chailly's Mahler 8th is already out on DVDA. These are the most tepid performances in the series by all accounts--and you gotta work pretty hard to destroy *these* works! It almost seems as though they think no one who likes DVDA will care. Is that the way you want to be treated?
He descended to the level of dissing artists and orchestra's to fit his own agenda.His ranting shows that he has know knoledge of even the simplest basics of digital signal theory.
It's clearly the propaganda ate his brain.
All is left is a jibbering idiot.
.
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