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In Reply to: Re: Some more points . . . posted by Christine Tham on October 26, 2004 at 06:08:22:
Firstly, I note that you’ve declined to contest my other points about low-cost DVD-A hardware, hirez digital link evolution, and HD-DVD backwards compatibility.Now:-
>> ***Actually, DVD-A’s MLP makes it quite difficult to copy the audio. ***How so? i can assure you, the MLP tracks on DVD-As without CPPM are very copyable.<<MLP is not like any other form of packing, as it uses 3 different techniques to reduce filesizes, not just one as others do, plus it does not need to be decoded before playing — all the complexity is in the encoder, and the files can be played back in real time by a suitably equipped player. Sure, without CPPM, you can copy the AOB file, but the difficulty arises in extracting the six streams of original, uncompressed, editable LPCM (unless you have some sort of dubious contraption to intercept and hack the PCM from inside the player).
>> *** Couple with this techniques like "muxing" — separating out different elements of the program into separate files *** what has this to do with MLP? *** CPPM encryption *** Watermarking.
These "measures" have nothing to do with MLP whatsoever.<<
Well, not according to your definition. But DVD-A combines all these together (as does the hirez portion of DualDisc). Therefore they are associated. i.e. Together they form a product called "DVD-Audio" (which has not been hacked when all these "measures" are combined). So I don’t feel it is fair to say that they "have nothing to do with each other".
>> I totally fail to see how DualDisc will provide any sort of gateway to "future audio/video hardware and software" <<That is your sequence of words, not mine.
Follow Ups:
*** Firstly, I note that you’ve declined to contest my other points about low-cost DVD-A hardware, hirez digital link evolution, and HD-DVD backwards compatibility. ***I haven't contested them because you appeared to be agreeing with me. if you have data that shows that the % of DVD-A players in use today is greater than 50% of all DVD players then i'm happy to listen. if you can show one dvd-a player that's cheaper than any comparable non dvd-a player, i'll like to know about it. asserting that you can buy very low cost DVD-A players mean nothing - there's always a cheaper DVD-V player. if you can show at least one player capable of transmitting 96/24 5.1 on one cable in such a way that it can be decoded by at least three amps of different brands *today* i would love to hear about it.
until then, i still believe that DVD-A players *today* are (a) comparatively rare, (b) comparatively expensive and (c) there is no universally accepted single cable solution deployed. in the future, that may change. in the future, we could all be dead.
*** Sure, without CPPM, you can copy the AOB file, but the difficulty arises in extracting the six streams of original, uncompressed, editable LPCM ***
You said it was difficult to copy. You never said anything about extracting until just then. My original statement stands (there is nothing inherent in MLP that makes it difficult to *copy*). And by the way, MLP is not the same as AOB, just like MPEG2 is not the same as VOB. More confusion on your part, methinks.
as for extracting, anyone who owns a legal licensed MLP decoder should be able to do the extraction of non copy protected MLP content. of course, last time i checked, it's very expensive. but not "difficult."
*** But DVD-A combines all these together (as does the hirez portion of DualDisc). ***
yes, it's DVD-A that combines all these together, not MLP. Hence your confusion about DVD-A the format vs MLP the encoding scheme. If a new format also adopts MLP that doesn't imply anything about backwards compatibility with DVD-A.
*** That is your sequence of words, not mine. ***
OK, then. in your sequence of words, kindly explain exactly what you mean by DualDisc being a "gateway"?
Pioneer DV-59AVi using firewire into:
Yamaha RX-Z9
Pioneer VSX-56TXiI should have a 3rd unit, from a 3rd manufacturer in by year's end.
It's definitely working, as advertised, but I don't want to comment on something I haven't personally tested.
i admit to being deliberately cruel to Martin by artificially setting the bar at 3.
> > i admit to being deliberately cruel to Martin by artificially setting the bar at 3 < <
Well, I'm only commenting on what I've tested. The 3rd one will likely be met shortly, if the sample ships as expected.I'll be glad when single cable connections (either HDMI or iLink) are the norm rather than the exception. There's just too damned many cables that I need these days!
Puleese Christine -- I'm not "confused" about what MLP is. I've have read and understood Bob Stuart's papers etc. 'FIFO buffers' and all the rest. And like you, I studied engineering at university and I have read many technical "white papers" in my time.And you must also recall that last year we both exchanged significant info about CPPM etc.
I think if any confusion does exist, then it is probably more to do with how I perceive what you are saying, and how you perceive what I'm saying. Maybe we should leave it at that. :-)
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