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In Reply to: Re: Some points . . . posted by Christine Tham on October 26, 2004 at 04:34:20:
>> *** That was indeed the case a couple of years ago when DVD-A playback equipment was (a) still very rare, (b) expensive, and (c) lacked a one-cable digital hirez link. ***
as far as i can tell that is still the case. <<Re (a) and (b): I can now even find DVD-Audio compatible cheapo music systems (Technics, Panasonic, Pioneer etc.) in "Dixons" — here in the UK. (Now that’s saying something!) I also saw them in an Atlanta shopping mall, when I went there recently for an aviation conference.
>> i am confident that more non-dvd-a players are sold every day compared to dvd-a players (just check out the "supermarket specials"). and most consumers do not upgrade their players every year. there is a large installed base of non-dvd-a players.<<Agreed, but those very cheapest ones are often for folks who have no real interest in audio, and just want a simple DVD machine for their small bedroom TV, and/or to keep their kids occupied with Disney DVD movies etc.. But as I said above, I have seen some very cheap DVD-A/V players. (I have one in my bedroom, for example -- a Panny.)
>> last time i checked, the dvd-a players still command a price premium over non-dvd-a players. for every dvd-a player you care to name, i can point to a non-dvd-a player at a cheaper price from the same manufacturer.<<Agreed, but the premium is not that great (see above).
>> finally, show me the "one-cable digital hirez link." firewire? nope, too many incompatibility issues between brands. hdmi? show me a single working hdmi player today that passes full 96/24 5.1. the spec only just got finalised a few weeks ago.<<Points taken, but the industry is undeniably moving in this direction. Denon have had their perfectly satisfactory Denon-Link for some time now (between their receivers and upper-end DVD players), while Pioneer have pitched their i-link hardware at a more mass-market level. Arcam’s new DV-79 player already features HDMI (probably updatable to the latest spec via firmware), and the rest will inevitably converge in this standard (along with AV amps, receivers, pre-pros and video displays etc.). In short, Firewire, DVI and i-link are neccessary, logical, and evolutionary steps in this 'one-cable' AV solution.
>> you seem to be confused between a format (DVD-Audio) and an encoding scheme (MLP). <<
I’m not confused at all.
>> I struggle to understand your comment about backward compatibility. <<No need to struggle. ;- ) i.e. Just stick a DVD-A in them, and they should play the DVD-A content.
>> and copy protection is not a feature of the encoding scheme (MLP) — it's a feature of the format (DVD-Audio). <<Actually, DVD-A’s MLP makes it quite difficult to copy the audio. This is something which many observers generally overlook. Meridian have not published the fine details of the decoding algorithm.
Couple with this techniques like "muxing" — separating out different elements of the program into separate files; CPPM encryption, and Watermarking etc., makes copying DVD-A content more trouble than it’s worth. These measures will surely be carried through (and enhanced) to future audio/video hardware and software, whilst every effort will be made to drop Dolby Digital and raw LPCM in their current forms. Moreover, I don’t think it takes a genius to see that DualDisc is a "gateway" product and part of the strategy which will help make this all happen. :)
Follow Ups:
Let's analyse your "confusion", shall we?***Actually, DVD-A’s MLP makes it quite difficult to copy the audio. ***
How so? i can assure you, the MLP tracks on DVD-As without CPPM are very copyable.
*** Couple with this techniques like "muxing" — separating out different elements of the program into separate files ***what has this to do with MLP?
*** CPPM encryption ***
ditto
*** Watermarking ***
ditto
*** These measures will surely be carried through (and enhanced) to future audio/video hardware and software ***
These "measures" have nothing to do with MLP whatsoever.
*** Moreover, I don’t think it takes a genius to see that DualDisc is a "gateway" product and part of the strategy which will help make this all happen. :) ***
I'm obviously not a genius - I totally fail to see how DualDisc will provide any sort of gateway to "future audio/video hardware and software" Perhaps you can explain further and help mere mortals like me understand?
Firstly, I note that you’ve declined to contest my other points about low-cost DVD-A hardware, hirez digital link evolution, and HD-DVD backwards compatibility.Now:-
> > ***Actually, DVD-A’s MLP makes it quite difficult to copy the audio. ***How so? i can assure you, the MLP tracks on DVD-As without CPPM are very copyable. < <MLP is not like any other form of packing, as it uses 3 different techniques to reduce filesizes, not just one as others do, plus it does not need to be decoded before playing — all the complexity is in the encoder, and the files can be played back in real time by a suitably equipped player. Sure, without CPPM, you can copy the AOB file, but the difficulty arises in extracting the six streams of original, uncompressed, editable LPCM (unless you have some sort of dubious contraption to intercept and hack the PCM from inside the player).
> > *** Couple with this techniques like "muxing" — separating out different elements of the program into separate files *** what has this to do with MLP? *** CPPM encryption *** Watermarking.
These "measures" have nothing to do with MLP whatsoever. < <
Well, not according to your definition. But DVD-A combines all these together (as does the hirez portion of DualDisc). Therefore they are associated. i.e. Together they form a product called "DVD-Audio" (which has not been hacked when all these "measures" are combined). So I don’t feel it is fair to say that they "have nothing to do with each other".
> > I totally fail to see how DualDisc will provide any sort of gateway to "future audio/video hardware and software" < <That is your sequence of words, not mine.
*** Firstly, I note that you’ve declined to contest my other points about low-cost DVD-A hardware, hirez digital link evolution, and HD-DVD backwards compatibility. ***I haven't contested them because you appeared to be agreeing with me. if you have data that shows that the % of DVD-A players in use today is greater than 50% of all DVD players then i'm happy to listen. if you can show one dvd-a player that's cheaper than any comparable non dvd-a player, i'll like to know about it. asserting that you can buy very low cost DVD-A players mean nothing - there's always a cheaper DVD-V player. if you can show at least one player capable of transmitting 96/24 5.1 on one cable in such a way that it can be decoded by at least three amps of different brands *today* i would love to hear about it.
until then, i still believe that DVD-A players *today* are (a) comparatively rare, (b) comparatively expensive and (c) there is no universally accepted single cable solution deployed. in the future, that may change. in the future, we could all be dead.
*** Sure, without CPPM, you can copy the AOB file, but the difficulty arises in extracting the six streams of original, uncompressed, editable LPCM ***
You said it was difficult to copy. You never said anything about extracting until just then. My original statement stands (there is nothing inherent in MLP that makes it difficult to *copy*). And by the way, MLP is not the same as AOB, just like MPEG2 is not the same as VOB. More confusion on your part, methinks.
as for extracting, anyone who owns a legal licensed MLP decoder should be able to do the extraction of non copy protected MLP content. of course, last time i checked, it's very expensive. but not "difficult."
*** But DVD-A combines all these together (as does the hirez portion of DualDisc). ***
yes, it's DVD-A that combines all these together, not MLP. Hence your confusion about DVD-A the format vs MLP the encoding scheme. If a new format also adopts MLP that doesn't imply anything about backwards compatibility with DVD-A.
*** That is your sequence of words, not mine. ***
OK, then. in your sequence of words, kindly explain exactly what you mean by DualDisc being a "gateway"?
Pioneer DV-59AVi using firewire into:
Yamaha RX-Z9
Pioneer VSX-56TXiI should have a 3rd unit, from a 3rd manufacturer in by year's end.
It's definitely working, as advertised, but I don't want to comment on something I haven't personally tested.
i admit to being deliberately cruel to Martin by artificially setting the bar at 3.
> > i admit to being deliberately cruel to Martin by artificially setting the bar at 3 < <
Well, I'm only commenting on what I've tested. The 3rd one will likely be met shortly, if the sample ships as expected.I'll be glad when single cable connections (either HDMI or iLink) are the norm rather than the exception. There's just too damned many cables that I need these days!
Puleese Christine -- I'm not "confused" about what MLP is. I've have read and understood Bob Stuart's papers etc. 'FIFO buffers' and all the rest. And like you, I studied engineering at university and I have read many technical "white papers" in my time.And you must also recall that last year we both exchanged significant info about CPPM etc.
I think if any confusion does exist, then it is probably more to do with how I perceive what you are saying, and how you perceive what I'm saying. Maybe we should leave it at that. :-)
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