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In Reply to: SACD is now DeadDisc . The DVD Forum has just approved DualDisc . ... posted by ZS KEKL on June 13, 2004 at 23:12:29:
The average consumer WILL choose the Dual-Disc with CD layer, multi-channel high resolution Digital, bonus Music Videos, on screen lyrics, artists interviews and other extra's as to the average consumer MORE is better, and they all crave VIDEO. SACD does not offer all these extras, and if they are setting side by side for the same price, the average consumer will pick the Dual-Disc DVD-Audio.This is bad news to TRUE music lovers who prefer NO VIDEO and 2 channel stereo we will now have to go back to Mail Order to get our audiophile SACDs.
I will not buy into the DualDiscs, as I don't want all that extra crap, but I am in a small minority.
Just my 2 cents,
Teresa
Follow Ups:
IF DUAL DISC ARE SUCCESSFUL. Sorry I am screaming but attacking me when all I am saying is that by DVD-Audio winning the Hi Rez wars it is bad news for true 2 channel audio lovers is beyond me. YOU SHOULD BE REJOICING THAT YOU MULTI-CHANNEL FORMAT WILL WIN!Are you afraid to celebrate?
Just curious.
Because you guys went the TOTALLY WRONG direction in this post it is re-posted below:
Is this some sort of a side effect of the SA-CD religion?Looks dangerous.
that the fact that i think that MC audio can be as good and in some cases better than 2-channel audio made me *not* a true music lover! oh, and the fact that i feel in some circumstances that video can enhance the music experience. . . .for shame, to think that all these years i've been so deluded! all those hours i've spent listening to quality MC recordings - all those hours i've spent watching my super furry animals and cornelius dvds (GASP - they're in multichannel DTS as well - a double whammy!!!) where i was telling myself that i was loving the music - i was, in fact, wrong. i wonder how a became so fooled to begin with?
i can only thank you for showing me the error of my ways - that having an open mind about the (sometimes limited) application of new technologies excluded me some ever really loving music!
i guess the only worthy penance, according to your impeccably flawless teachings, will be for me to destroy any video display devices in any listening environment i may have, and then to ritualistically burn the extra three-point-one channels of evil while begging the gods for forgiveness. once cleansed, i'll go out and make sure any digital devices i have are properly tubed because SS digital is just too damn harsh and grainy. once that's done, if the god of high-end audio - notransisticus - sees fit, maybe i'll be allowed to start loving music in the way that only you, the exalted one, are able to do so far.
i can only hope.
How you read that into the sentence at all I have no idea, I was worried that this would KILL HIGH RESOLUTION 2 channel audio that I personally prefer, as a severa; posters said it would.But just for John I revised my sentence:
This is bad news to TRUE 2 channel music lovers who prefer NO VIDEO as we will now have to go back to Mail Order to get our audiophile SACDs.
Wow, just because someone prefers 2 channel audio, who I you guys pick up that multi-channel is not music. WOW!
Teresa
....and a horrendous pain.
Hi Teresa,My hope is that blue ray laser technology with its much higher density capability will ultimately provide us the ability to enjoy video in music while, at the same time, providing SACD/DVD-A quality multi-channel sound. The video, like multi-channel, adds additional dimensions to one's listening enjoyment. The Blue Ray format might just be the ultimate answer for all of us.
Having said that, here are some qualifiers:
. Currently there are fine symphony and opera recordings on both DVD and laser disc. The visual adds much to enjoyment of the performance. Unfortunately, the concentration needs to go into the performance while forgiving the poor quality of the audio (kind of like listening to a Furtwangler recording - Every music lover does but it's so sad that the higher quality recording techniques weren't available during his years of conducting in Berlin).
. In that you're on this forum, I presume your new player is universal. If that's the case, look into AIX DVD-A recordings These will show you that DVD-A has the capability of competing very closely with SACD in sound quality. The AIX recordings with their careful miking certainly fall into the category of fine performances for the music lover.
. Thank you for suggesting the Shostakovich 8 SACD on Capriccio. I immediately ordered it after reading your brief words of jubilation. Also, I agree with your assessment of the Telarc Prokofiev Romeo and Juliet. These are both wonderful recordings. I hope some day though, that you get the chance to listen to these two recordings on a good multi-channel system. The only thing the rear channels add is the hall ambience. With that ambience it's much more like actually attending the performance. On the other hand, on listening to strictly two channel, it is a way of filtering out the hall reflections and hearing the music in maybe a bit more detail. I suppose it's a matter of preference. I don't believe though that one who prefers one format over the other is any more a music lover than the other.
Cheers!
Ken
my new player is 2 channel SACD / CD with 2 output tubes, the Xindak SCD-2 and thus cannot play DVD in any form.Glad you are enjoying the Shostakovich and Prokofiev SACDs.
Happy listening,
Teresa
I know you've gravitated back and forth between hi-rez CD and vinyl for a while. Have you found that the tube output player, in your case, the Xindak, best approximates, for the digital medium, the analog sound that your ears seem to require?From your postings in the past I've grown to suspect that your ears and my ears hear music similarly. I'm getting ready to send my Denon 5900 to Dan Wright for his Signature Truth Tube Mod. I would appreciate hearing an opinion from your particular set of ears on to what degree the tube output player influenced your move back to the digital realm.
Look forward to your response,
Ken
And the Xindak SCD-2 does sound much more ANALOG LIKE, it comes very close to my cheap Music Hall turntable with LP Gear upgrades. In the pure beauty of sound and the LPs are still slightly better in my system. SACDs from DSD and Analog masters are very realistic and thrilling and don't have "Digital" glare that I experience with the 9000ES just after listening to an LP. And CDs sound better than I ever thought possible, especially the delicacy in the high frequences and the impact in the bass, CDs can be quite enjoybale.I can go back and forth between LPs, CDs and SACDs with no discomfort at all, I am really impressed with this "tubed" SACD player.
Please keep me posted after you get the Dan Wright for his Signature Truth Tube Mod for you Denon 5900. Based on how good my CDs sound, higher resolution PCM should be quite nice through tubes.
All of my complaints about PCM, expecially low resolution PCM appears to really be complaints about "transister sound" or a combination of the two as PCM doesn't produce that "grating pain in my ears" sound through tubes.
Good luck on the mod,
Teresa
Teresa says:This is bad news to TRUE music lovers who prefer NO VIDEO and 2 channel stereo we will now have to go back to Mail Order to get our audiophile SACDs.
Poppycock.
The purchase of a disc with or without video content and with or without stereo content has zero to do with being a "true music lover". Being a "true music lover" also isn't about purchasing just 2 channel stereo recordings.
Being a "true music lover" is about purchasing music for the joy of the performances on the disc. Anything else is being an audiophile.
For some reason, you have equated being an audiophile with being a music lover, and sadly that often isn't the case.
Regards,
John Kotches
This is bad news to TRUE 2 channel music lovers who prefer NO VIDEO as we will now have to go back to Mail Order to get our audiophile SACDs.I did not mean to offend all I'm saying is that if DVD-Audio becomes the item that consumers pull off the shelf and the producers leave out the HIGH RESOLUTION 2 channel mix (do to lack of space) as suggested below it means the death of 2 channel audio at the mass market level and meaning we will have to go back to ordering SACD only from Audiophile on-line dealers.
The "Dual-Disc" may kill 2 channel audio at the mass market level. And that is what I am saying. And if there is not enough demand for SACD with on on-line retailers, that could kill SACD and 2 channel audio with the exception of the high priced audiophile re-issue LPs! Why do you insist in twisting my words?
You really know how to kick someone when they are down!
Teresa
Teresa:Wow... So then a DualDisc won't include a CD mix with 2-channels? That's news to me. I thought that was the point of DualDisc.
DualDisc can't contain a Stereo and Multi-channel track on the DVD side? That's news to me. Both of the DualDiscs I own have both. One (Barenaked Ladies) is 48K the other (3 Doors Down) is 96K.
Why not simply avoid making such proclamations in the first place? That seems like the best approach since it's easy to demonstrate just how far away from having a clue you are.
Regards,
John Kotches
I only reported what other posters have said. And many feel the 2 channel High resolution tracks will go the way of the doo-doo bird, after all there is a CD layer, well the CD layer is not good enough for me. What is this about a clue anyway, I just DO NOT WANT 2 channel high resolution to DISAPPEAR under any circumstances!Please lightenup!
Teresa
Here is just one post:"Smart movement of Sony.
Single layered DVD side of DualDisc has not enough place (4,7 Gb) for:1. Dolby Digital tracks, DTS tracks, visual & bonus content in VIDEO_TS folder (for all DVD players).
2. MLP stereo and MCH tracks, plus the same visual & bonus content in AUDIO_TS folder (for DVD-Audio players).
They will have to rid something of. I think it will be MLP stereo. And/or for long albums they will lower the resolution of MLP MCH track aswell.
And when some day they rid the MLP content of in whole (like Sony in their test batch of DualDiscs last autumn) in favor of DVD-Video content, they'll realize that this solution doesn't affect the sales of DialDiscs at all.
After all DVD-A was not most bad format on this earth. RIP.
LOL (c) ZS KEKL"
Teresa,I responded directly to your comments, not what others have said.
Do I need to remind you what you said again? It was a proclamation.It started off with true music lovers only listening to 2 channel mixes (not true) and you eventually backed down the rhetoric, somewhat.
If DualDisc affects the retail presence of SA-CD, I don't have a problem with that. I'd venture to say that the bulk of SA-CDs sales are via mail order anyway.
From a market perspective, if DualDiscs continue sell at the $20 price point that they were test marketed at, the record companies will enjoy the extra revenues assuming they offset the additional costs of production.
Regards,
John Kotches
YOU SAIDTeresa:
Wow... So then a DualDisc won't include a CD mix with 2-channels? That's news to me. I thought that was the point of DualDisc.
DualDisc can't contain a Stereo and Multi-channel track on the DVD side? That's news to me. Both of the DualDiscs I own have both. One (Barenaked Ladies) is 48K the other (3 Doors Down) is 96K.
Why not simply avoid making such proclamations in the first place? That seems like the best approach since it's easy to demonstrate just how far away from having a clue you are.
I RESPONDED with POST by Z1 about the proclamation of leaving out the High Rez 2 channel audio for lack of space.
The goal of DualDisc is to include a CD layer. I did not make any proclamations
I only reported what other posters have said. And many feel the 2 channel High resolution tracks will go the way of the doo-doo bird, after all there is a CD layer, well the CD layer is not good enough for me. What is this about a clue anyway, I just DO NOT WANT 2 channel high resolution to DISAPPEAR under any circumstances!
Please lightenup!Teresa
Here is just one post:"Smart movement of Sony.
Single layered DVD side of DualDisc has not enough place (4,7 Gb) for:1. Dolby Digital tracks, DTS tracks, visual & bonus content in VIDEO_TS folder (for all DVD players).
2. MLP stereo and MCH tracks, plus the same visual & bonus content in AUDIO_TS folder (for DVD-Audio players).
They will have to rid something of. I think it will be MLP stereo. And/or for long albums they will lower the resolution of MLP MCH track aswell.
And when some day they rid the MLP content of in whole (like Sony in their test batch of DualDiscs last autumn) in favor of DVD-Video content, they'll realize that this solution doesn't affect the sales of DialDiscs at all.
After all DVD-A was not most bad format on this earth. RIP.
LOL (c) ZS KEKL"
NOWHERE IN EITHER OF THESE POSTS IS MENTIONED YOUR TOTAL MISUNDERSTANDING OF MY SENTENCE ABOUT 2 CHANNEL AUDIO LOVERS. IN WHICH I HAD TO MAKE THE SENTENCE "CLEARER" JUST FOR YOU. I DID NOT BACK DOWN FROM ANY RHETORIC AS I USED NO RHERTORIC, ONLY PROBLEM IS YOUR MISUNDERSTANDING OF ENGLISH, I may have to write you a book to help you understand a simple sentence, but here goes:Original sentence: This is bad news to TRUE music lovers who prefer NO VIDEO and 2 channel stereo we will now have to go back to Mail Order to get our audiophile SACDs.
Revised senctence: This is bad news to TRUE 2 channel music lovers who prefer NO VIDEO as we will now have to go back to Mail Order to get our audiophile SACDs.
So since you understand neither sentence here is the long version:
A "True" 2 channel music listener verus a casual 2 channel music listener who cares more about video content, lyrics and other extras would not miss a high resolution 2 channel mix like a true 2 channel music lover does, So the absence if a 2 channel mix to true 2 channel music lovers is TRAGIC! To the videophile 2 channel listener with a low resolution system even Dolby Digital folded down to 2 channel may be good enough! There was NO MENTION whatsoever of multi-channel listeners as I was talking about multi-channel folded down to 2 channel stereo listeners. Multi-channel listeners don't have this problem as they listen to the multi-channel mix. Now is that easier to understand?I AM GETTING SICK AND TIRED ON MULTI-CHANNEL HOLIER THAN THOU'S PICKING ON 2 CHANNEL MUSIC LOVERS - THIS MUST STOP NOW!
Also if the DualDiscs intend to replace CDs their price had better be $13.00 not $20.00, maybe I have nothing to worry about afterall!
Happy listening,
Teresa
Wow, it takes several posts to clarify what you actually want to say?And then, you don't even make the point clearly.
I have two DualDiscs. One has a 24/96K stereo mix. One has a 24/48K stereo mix. So, in my sample of discs which is admittedly small, 1/2 of them have delivered a high resolution stereo mix.
It is far too early to tell what the final product will look like across several hundred titles, since this was a limited test marketing sampling with only about 15-20 titles available. Anyone saying that it's bad news for true 2 channel (or any channel counts) music lovers is extremely premature. You made a proclamation that is at this time wholly unsupportable.
BTW, it's the 2 channel fanatics that adopt the "holier than though" approach, as you have done on numerous occasions. Never mind the fact that stereo was an inherent compromise from the beginning.
Do you want to revisit all those DSD posts, and your constant vacillation over which format you're going to support? It's rather entertaining fare.
If you can't deal with criticism based on what you've said, then you're participating in the wrong forum.
Regards,
John Kotches
A mutli-channel wizz bang mix of say, the Moody Blues, "Days Of Future Passed" targeted at mum & dads who've just bought their home theatre in a box would make most music lovers keel over.Thats the point. I'd want a hirez stereo since thats how it was recorded/released originally. On the other hand, I have no problem with the latest drum & bass album being recorded for multi-channel and released that way.
Daniel.
four things:1) not all multichannel setups are mum and dads who use an HTIB. (not that there's anything wrong with that, if that's what makes you happy - use what you enjoy) there are lots of us, myself included, who have built a multichannel system the way we build a 2-channel system. mine, in fact, was built as an addition to my 2-channel.
2) i think that multichannel versions of 'days of future passed' and 'on the threshold of a dream' (which is one of my favorite albums, btw), could be absolutely *stunning*! have you heard pink floyd DSOTM in MC on a proper set-up? if not, then don't complain about 2-channel re-issues done MC. (i promise you - on that album and on peter gabriel's 'up' - if you listen mc and then go back and try to listen 2-channel, you'll be bored stiff with the latter) while i will agree with you that we don't need to go back and take an old marty robbins (for example) recording and mix it such that his guitar is coming from behind you, slightly to the left - i do believe that certain styles of music do lend themselves to whiz-bang effects. you just so happened to choose one band that i feel does. like pink floyd, who were one of their primary influences, the moody blues used all sorts of hard stereo pans and engineering tricks for theatrical effect. i can't imagine that they would not have done it multichannel if it had been available. which brings us to
3) what if the original band/mixer/engineer/producer is the one responsible for the mix? is that still being too revisionist? like pink floyd on DSOTM, the moody blues were involved in the MC mix of the DTS versions of their albums and will be invlolved in the SACD MC mixes. if that's how the artist wants it, who are we to tell them they can't revise their own work? and lastly
4) that's what's so great about SACD (and a great option of DVD-A) - with SACD there *has* to be a 2-channel mix! so if you don' ever want to hear the MC version, you don't have to! lets not halt progress of MC because a few people are afraid it will kill 2-channel. it won't. we're still talking about 2 formats that may never break into the mainstream. and asuuming they do, if SACD ends up being the "winner," then you have nothing to worry about since the provisions for SACD state that there must be a stereo mix.
Sorry, but the classification as "TRUE music lovers" only listening in stereo is hogwash. It's nice to see a "two-channel" mafia playing along though.The number of channels that someone uses to listen to music is wholly irrelevant to their love of the material.
You too are confusing audiophilia with love of music.
Hint, it isn't about the gear.
Regards,
John Kotches
hear, hear!couldn't agree with you any more!
and as for a multichannel mix of the moody blues - i'm hoping that 'on the threshold of a dream' is half as good as DSOTM.
if so, i'll be one happy multichannel-sacd-listening-type-guy.
http://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/You are welcome to check out the above address to find out about quad recordings. It is obvious you do not know about these recordings. I was partly responsible for the DTS recordings of the Moodies titles and in no way were they involved at all, except in the orignal release. IN 1970s. Very little was altered in thoise releases, other than a fake center derived from the front-turn it off. Screws up the soundfiled, but desired by DTS at the time. These are the quad recordings from the 70's as are the upcoming releases. 2 channel recordings are fake soundfields and quad recordings have the full reality soundfield available. What is put in that soundfield is a wide varience, but it has the ability to recreate how you actually hear sound, or a mix that entertains. The best recordings have a blend of both. All the quad recordings of the Moodies and many others are available by quadraphiles, as we have DTS encoding available for a couple years now with our computers. Now we have DVD-A encoding available also.
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