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Following a thread on the Highway, John Atkinson (editor of Stereophile) said a special high-resolution recording would be published only on SACD and on CD. He said although the PCM version was recorded in 24/192 PCM, they had no intention to publish it on high-resolution PCM, and would only use it to decimate/downsample to the redbook version. (whatever the reason, it strikes me as a dumb thing to do, but.... :)Anyway, this got me thinking: Maybe the cost of a DVD-Audio is actually higher than that of SACD for publishers. I know Frank often mentions a cost of $1.50 per disc for a SACD (don't know if this is the SACD logo fee, or just the extra manufacturing cost, or both), but on the other hand SACD requires very little work in authoring, and no image rights.
So my question is: what is the "standard" industry cost for doing the authoring of a DVD-Audio title (including the DVD-V section)?
and other questions:
Is the authoring usually a "fixed cost" or is it variable and indexed on the number of copies pressed?
Is there a fee for MLP material paid for each title authored or is it paid by the authoring software?
Is there a logo fee and other costs associated with using a Dolby Digital section, etc?
etcI know things must be very variable, from a bonus-packed DVD of Madonna to a classical concert (Madonna has more lawyers than Mozart :), but maybe some industry participants can provide a rough estimate of the "extra" cost of a DVD-Audio for a small production?
Best
Follow Ups:
Authoring a DVD-A can be expensive because of the extras that could be included on DVD-A. The mastering house will have to spend more time on the 2 or 3 extra tracks (hi-res 2-channel, hi-res multichannel, DD or DTS), as well as any video, bonus material, and artwork, along with an accompanying CD release. Gathering all this together, mastering them, and testing them out takes a lot of time. For example, multichannel tracks are listened to two channels at a time through headphones in the QA process.Charlie Watts from Enterprise Mastering estimates between 29 to 62 hours per title with several people involved, and good mastering engineers are certainly not cheap. At Surround Pro 3 years ago, he showed us a big flowchart for an entire DVD-A release, which was necessary just to make sure they kept everything organized, because there was so much to do.
Note that all of this is entirely before the manufacturing phase.
> Authoring a DVD-A can be expensive because of the extras that could be included on DVD-A. <The key words being "can" and "could". How about saying SACD is less expensive because of the things that can't be done, such as no DVD-Video compatible multi-channel and no extras.
Producing a fully-featured DVD-Audio disc can be more expensive than an SACD, but it doesn't have to be. There are no requirements for any video or any extras, there isn't even a requirement for Dolby Digital or DVD-Video compatible PCM, in which case a DVD-Audio project becomes far easier to produce and no more expensive than an SACD version.
I think we come to the same kind of conclusion (see my (too) long response to John below), but it would be difficult to convince any label to publish a DVD-Audio disc without any DVD-V compatibility.Best
That's weird. Mark Waldrep can manage all of it himself without all that overhead, and he has some fairly ambitious release content.
Hi John,Maybe Dr AIX has superpowers :)
but I believe Andre is right on this issue, there's a significant project management aspect in preparing and authoring a "rich content" DVD-Audio / Video project from scratch.
Of course as Jimby said the core of the cost and added value is the MCH mix, if there is one, but this is almost neutral for a DVD-Audio or a SACD project. If the cost can be allocated to both a DVD-Audio and a SACD edition by using the same mix (as UMG has been doing), there's a potential gain for publishers. Licensing or buying an existing mix (like a previous DTS mix) may also be a way to reduce costs.
What I understand at this point:
- recording equipment: cheaper in high-resolution PCM, more studios with compatible equipment.
- mixing etc: cheaper in PCM tools, no back and forth transfers,
- authoring: cheaper on SACD - no menus, no visual content. DVD-Audio is more expensive + additional format encoding and authoring for DVD-V section, visual rights
- mastering: cheaper for DVD-Audio? - more options available for publishers
- manufacturing cost: "real cost" 50% cheaper for DVD-Audio (even including logo fees etc), because of technical process of SACD (bonding, etc) and QC issues ... BTW it was stated a couple years ago that 50% of mastering and manufacturing cost of SACDs was (is?) sponsored by technology vendors in order to stimulate the market.So, my (totally unscientific) estimate would be that publishing a title in DVD-Audio format is more expensive than doing it on SACD up to 5,000 units, and cheaper beyond that point.
It would be interesting to know if you can bring down the cost of the graphic / menus, authoring etc part to less than, or about $5,000. In that case, all things being equal (same material, same mix, etc), DVD-Audio could be a competitive option against SACD at a much lower volume (eg 3,000 copies).
What's the impact for independent publishers?
If the reasoning is correct, one of the keys for small publishers is to invest in "templates" with the design, menus, etc and use those templates to automate the authoring in-house. That ensures a consistent look and feel in the label's various titles.
But maybe independent labels simply ought to publish minimalist titles, with a high resolution stereo version only, and no video supplement, à la DAD, so as to save on authoring and graphical menus / bonuses. A simple structure with 24/96 DVD-V and 24/192 DVD-A, no fancy bonuses except some slides about the artist and the label catalog, should be OK for an independent production, and cheaper than a SACD.
Best
Eric
Eric,That looks like a good assesment to me. I have a couple of comments ...
SACD can be mastered in the analog or PCM digital domain as well, and there are many good tools in either domain. Of course, at this point, you may turn off the 0.001 percent of people who care about keeping DSD "pure".
I think the important thing is producing something that consumers want to pay $18 or $25, or whatever the final price is, be it SACD or DVD-A, or DVD-V. We could argue 'til we're all blue in the face about the cost, flexibility, and time requirements of mastering DVD-As vs. SACD, but if people want bonus videos, or lyrics, or Easter eggs, or just cool-looking menus, over a plain audio-only product, then the successful DVD-A producer is going to provide this to them --- what's the use of saving a few thousand dollars when you don't sell anything? I think, too often, many people (not necessarily you), blinded by knee-jerk dogmatism in defending "their" hi-res format of choice for any trivial criticism, forget that content publishers have to make and sell desirable product.
This isn't to say that one format's better than another --- each format has its share of warts --- but I think a better way of looking at this is not just at the cost of mastering alone, but the additional revenue through extra sales as a result of paying more for mastering. In other words, how many more discs do I sell if I pay more for better, more, etc. mastering and authoring?
BTW, I'm not talking here just about whiz-bang features like menus and videos, but also better musical and technical production of the audio content. There are so many people today who think they can produce decent results with semi-pro tools and no real experience, with the false economy of forgoing hiring good (but expensive) recording and mastering engineers, it's not really a wonder to me that MP3s have taken over and the music industry is going down the toilet.
Andre,(Sorry, I was offline for a couple days)
I think we agree that including bonuses and providing high-quality content to the consumers is a good strategy in the long term, and AIX is a good example of a small label that has successfully achieved this. But -- as Mark Waldrep suggests below -- the full cost of a DVD-Audio product may be very high for a small audiophile label, especially if your distribution channels limit your sales to 3,000 to 5,000 (we all know that the average sale of audiophile high resolution titles is still in that range). This, and the fact that SACD is a simple "one stop" solution (see the posts by David Elias and the Suitcase Pimps' producer on the Hi-Rez Highway a few months ago), makes SACD an attractive option for cost-conscious small labels, especially if they plan to publish a stereo version only.
So my next comment would be that some elements are still missing in the food chain:
- For a small independent band or label, the total cost of doing a "simple" DVD-Audio should similar or cheaper than doing a SACD, and no more than doing a DVD.
- Need for some standardized templates that small labels and independent bands can buy as bundled packages (like other DVD-V templates etc) and that they will be able to customize and use in-house. This is something software publishers should be able to address, with a simple software and good templates sold on the Web.
- There's also a need for services: more small graphics studios willing and able to do the authoring for reasonable amounts, maybe with revenues indexed on a percentage of sales. It strikes me that there's a business opportunity in that area, many graphics studios could use the additional revenues
- The DVD-Audio Group ought to do some research into this, and generally speaking, send a message to the small studios and labels regarding the total cost of publishing a DVD-A title. Maybe a special "independent artists and labels" program could be set up, with a specific fee structure and an umbrella marketing program to advertise those titles.
That's my 0.02 :)
Cheers
Andre,So you don't thank the dearth of real talent and compelling material has anything to do with the overall music industry problems?
I think the "corporate built" stars of today are sadly lacking in talent, and everyone's trying to sound like everyone else.
However the licensing costs for DVD Audio are broken down into the technologes used.These are all optional:
CPPM
MLP
Verance
Dolby
DTSBasic licensing fees apply for DVD technlogies.
Normally these licensing fees are included in the manufacturing costs.
I can't really give you any soild information, but I remember a long time ago some figures were posted on the HH about the cost between SACD and DVD-Audio. Cost about licensing, fees and what not.Don't know if those figures were really true or if they still matter, but the difference were quite huge, to SACD's favor. I remember that a fee for the copy protection on DVD-Audio had to be paid, no matter if it was used or not and the fee were a fixed sum, but the amount was variable between a minimum and maximum for the size of the production (I think).
I'm sorry I don't have more real information, but maybe you can dig up the post on HH and see what the deal is.
And again... Those figures might not even apply today...
Eric
i remember that post where it seemed to list the fee shedules for the two hi rez formats.
It's dark and filled with ancient trolls down here :)I have found some interesting stuff though, I will post a short summary later
Cheers
o_O
Eric - there's nothing more to a DVD-Audio disc in terms of replication than there is to a DVD-Video title, DVD-A is just a DVD-Video disc with content in its AUDIO_TS directory.Typical prices for limited quantities of DVD-5 discs are $0.76 (for 10,000 copies) or $0.80 for a DVD-9 in similar quantities. Usually there's a stamper set-up fee, so factor in another $400-500.
> Is the authoring usually a "fixed cost" or is it variable and indexed on the number of copies pressed? <
Authoring costs depend on how complex the disc navigation is, not how many copies are pressed.
> Is there a logo fee and other costs associated with using a Dolby Digital section, etc? <
No. If you use a licensed Dolby Digital encoder, then one is entitled to use the logo, no matter how large or small the project.
> He said although the PCM version was recorded in 24/192 PCM, they had no intention to publish it on high-resolution PCM, and would only use it to decimate/downsample to the redbook version. (whatever the reason, it strikes me as a dumb thing to do, but.... <
Not dumb, but par for the course. Stereophile pander to the "audiophile" whackos, even if they believe another format to be superior behind-the-scenes. This is what sells the magazine so they're not going to change anytime soon.
The only thing about DVD-Audio that costs more than SACD are the licensed images, videos etc. But then, we all know a DVD-Audio disc doesn't need any of those things.
> > > Eric - there's nothing more to a DVD-Audio disc in terms of replication than there is to a DVD-Video title, DVD-A is just a DVD-Video disc with content in its AUDIO_TS directory. < <There are patent royalty costs and copy protection licensing costs that are significantly different from DVD-Video discs. Replicators also have to have CPPM software installed and tested at the line, and as a result need new LBR software as well. This is why many replicators cannot make DVD-A discs.
By far the largest cost in making a DVD-A title is the cost of the surround sound mix.
> There are patent royalty costs and copy protection licensing costs that are significantly different from DVD-Video discs. <Interesting - Care to tell us more? CPPM maybe, but all other copy-protection measures (watermarking etc) are optional.
> By far the largest cost in making a DVD-A title is the cost of the surround sound mix. <
Thanks NotMe,OK, so if I understand correctly, it's just a fixed cost with no extra cost related to production. You don't have to pay Meridian, Dolby, etc anything.
But if you want to do a very basic product, you still have to author the DVD-V section and add a few stills (let's assume they are free of rights), you probably have to get some studio involved... what would it cost?
$5K? $10K? more? Let's assume $7.5K? -
That sounds about right for maybe half a week of graphic studio work and some proof work?So...... if you divide $7.5K by a small production of 5,000 units, the cost of authoring in DVD-Audio format is quite high ($1.50 per disc), while the cost of a SACD is almost the same ($1,50 per disc, for the logo fee etc).
If you plan to run a high production, from what you are saying this cost tends to become marginal. Up to a certain level (5,000 in fact), SACD is the same cost, and above that, DVD-Audio becomes cheaper for publishers.
But then again, for a big production, you probably need to invest more in bonus materials...
Am I right?
Is it possible to do the authoring etc. for cheaper than $5,000?
EricPS: see link for a previous post on the cost of a commercial DVD-Video title in France = authoring, mastering and supplements (bonuses) =1.5 Euro (10% of revenues before distribution margins), almost the same amount
I wonder are there any of the DVD-A producers that have posted here previously still watching the board?
Maybe Dr AIX or Mathias Myka could chip in. What Dr Mark with many titles for AIX (and others) and Mathias with one DVD-A release on his own M7 Records have to say on this matter would certainly interest me.I think a more critical issue is the cost of recording for one or other format. DSD recording equipment is pricy and extremely scarce whears there is an abundance of 96/24 and evermore 192/24 PCM recording hardware and software at amazing prices. For example Mackie are just about to launch a new 16 channel analogue mixing console featuring 16 of their newly designed (and they say "amazing")"Onyx" mic preamps. Also newly designed is the 4 way "Perkins" EQ found on each channel. The really interesting feature is the 96K FireWire option for streaming 18 independent channels of audio (16 inputs + L&R) to a computer as well as two channels of audio back from the recording software to the console for monitoring purposes. Two consoles can be readily linked together. It also ships with a full version of Mackies "Tracktion" Audio and MIDI Production Software
The MRSP is expected to be around $1600 + $700 (Very "ish" prices!!) for Firewire board. I kid you not!
They also have the "Onyx 800R" 8 channel Mic Pre with simultaneous analogue and 192/24 outs coming soon for less than $2000.
Mackie are not the only ones making affordable PCM options.The ramifications of such a situation are very simple. In the coming few years we will see a rapidly increasing amounts of "genuine" Hi-Rez PCM surround and stereo mixes simply because people will have the hardware and software to make such items. For the vast majority to switch to an alternate system such as DSD makes no sense whatsoever on practically any level. Hi Rez PCM is easy to record, edit and mix.
The gear is readily available and ranges from very affordable to High Cost Esoteric stuff of your dreams.
DSD is almost the opposite. You have very few DSD recording options, Software is limited and editing difficult with conversion to PCM used for any serious cleaning up or editing. The high cost and extremely limited availability of any DSD solution certainly doesn't help.
There is definitely nothingeven vaguely suitable for the huge "ProSumer" market.
The number of "DIY" recording projects being undertaken by artists in all areas of music is expanding rapidly. Record in a nice environment (or environments) using any one of a number of very well spec'ed multitrack Hardware/Software options. Edit and rough, even full mixes in the comfort of your own home (or any other venue one might fancy). Tidying up and mixing in Studio of choice if required or desired. They are all using PCM stuff like ProTools, Logic, Nuendo, etc.
It is now pretty much the norm to have the capacity to handle at least 96/24, if not 192/24 on your list of requirements if investing in all but the most basic setup. DSD has got an uphill battle to make serious inroads in the Pro, Semi-Pro and ProSumer markets.Pure DSD SACD is probably rare enough, without some massive digital upheaval this is going to worsen as the industry in general seems to be firmly rooted in Hi-Rez PCM as the way forward.
I wonder what the number of DVD-A titles derived from DSD sources stacks up against the number of SACD titles produced from PCM sources?I could go on but won't!
Any way it's all to do with the timing!
I don't really have a lot of time to respond properly to this thread, but can say that producing a full-featured, truely high-resolution, 5.1 channel surround sound DVD-Audio/Video titles is very expensive and time-consuming. I believe that's why many traditional labels have opted for SACD...because it's the same business and financial model that they've always had. Straight music on a disc.AIX Records is probably the only DVD-Audio only label on the planet. We aren't releasing our recordings in CD form for quality reasons and have no plans for SACDs because of the lack of multimedia and the lack of suitable tools for making high-resolution multitrack source recordings.
The cost of production is all about studio time, video editing, graphics, licensing, authoring, QC and replication. The average cost of doing these things on a title of moderate complexity would come out to near $50K to $150K. This includes the live shoot and recording all the way through the final finished product. Because AIX Media Group does this sort of work for other labels (mostly DVD-Videos), it obviously doesn't cost us that much our-of-pocket...but still it takes a lot of time and a fair amount of cash.
We don't pay additional publishing, we don't pay for CPPM or MLP, we don't pay for the logo...just the cost of recording, mixing and production.
An believe it or not, after having finished over 35 titles...we're in the black! DVD-Audio/Video has worked out very well for us and we have plans for an additional 20+ titles this year. The upcoming Bad Haggis title is my new personal favorite.
I lurk around here every so often...the comments are about the same. Thanks for the long winded post Denis.
I hear nothing but praise for your recordings, but they are simply not available for me to buy here in Sydney, Australia. Do you foresee a distribution possibilty in the future? I would love to pick up some and see (hear) what all the fuss is about :-)
Cheers,
Paul.
Paul,It is interesting that you ask about Australia this week. I had a relationship with Rockian Trading but they informed me this week that they needed to terminate the relationship...not enough sales for them to sustain our line.
I always happy to support interested customers from the United States. Just let me know or visit the web site.
Thanks for the interest.
I live in the UK, but Dr. Mark's international shipping service is very efficient! About 15 titles through my letter box so far without a hitch.
The nice thing about PCM-> DSD, from a record producer standpoint, is that obsolescence is engineered in. When SuperDSD comes out in a few years, those 24/96 recordings can be reissued in a higher resolution format.
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