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Hey, gang.There's a thread below where I mentioned the similarites between a Linn LP-12 and a Thorens TD-150. I thought for those who may have never seen the innards of the two, it might be useful to check out a side-by-side photo of the undersides of the tables. On the right, a view of the two tables with color-coded circles for parts identification.
On top is the underside of a stock Thorens TD-150, at the bottom is the Linn LP-12.
Admittedly, the Linn has prettier guts. But if we check out where everything is and how it's designed, the two are very similar.
First is the 3-point suspension system. Take a look at where the suspension points are. (Green circles) Virtually the same on both tables. The rubber grommet & spring arrangement, also the same.
The motor on both (Blue circle) are in pretty much the same spot. The arms are mounted the same, (White circle-couldn't find a TD-150 photo with the armboard attached. Sorry.) and the armboard mounting scheme is also very similar. (Armboard screws marked with purple circles.) The bearing also looks similar in design and size. (Red circle.) The power switch is marked on both models with a yellow circle.
The Linn features a motor with a seperate power supply board, whereas the Thorens has a directly connected AC motor. There are of course different power supply boards available for the Linn, the Basik, Valhalla, and the Lingo. Provided the motor speed is stabile and there's no noise from the motor, I question if the different power boards would actually impact the sonics much. I'm not being a smartass, but I don't own a Linn, so I really dunno.
The TD-150 features a combination power switch and clutch to change the speed. On mine, I pulled this whole mechanism off & replaced it with a standard power switch. Less bits to rattle around and maybe cause unwanted sonic effects. There's a lot of other stuff I did to it too, in the link below.
Frankwm said in an earlier post:
"I don't see the 'attraction' of this deck.
OK, I used it for over 15 years.
But that's because I was too mean to buy a Linn!
There's no comparison in performance terms - despite the 'similarity'. "The last MSRP of the Linn LP-12 I could find on the web was $1700 for the basic stock model. (No bearing or power supply upgrade, etc.) My TD-150 cost $50. That, plus perhaps another $250 on a Linn arm, new cartridge, and tweaking materials, and I've got maybe $300 in it.
Would there be sonic differences between the TD-150 and the Linn IF the LP-12 were set up with the same arm and cartridge? Maybe. I can't imagine there would be $1400 worth, though.
That being said, if I were rich, I'd probably buy an LP-12 just so I could say "Looky - I've got an LP-12!"
Cheers,
Bobbo :-)
Follow Ups:
Wow this seems really biased.
I have a very nice LP12 and a very nice TD150. I bought the LP12 for less than $500, and I bought the TD150 for $50. If I had to pay again, I would shell out the $500 for the Linn. Although they might look the same, they are not the same. Everything on the Linn seems to be made to a higher standard. Bearing, plinth, subplinth, armboard, platter, subplatter, powersupply, and motor are of a higher quality.
I am not a linnie (I think that there are quite a few deck out there that can stomp a linn), but I do think that the Linn has higher quality parts and a better sound than a TD150.
It is obvious from the original post that the soundnut has not owned a Linn before. I would suggest that he gives it a shot. they can be picked up on the used market for quite cheap, and I think he might like it more than the TD150
And I said so in the post. Also, I'm not biased against Linn. I've read my original post now about 10 times trying to pinpoint where I may have come off as biased. It looks pretty neutral to me. I conceded that there could be sonic differences between a tweaked TD-150 and an LP-12. I did say that I had doubts if it would be a difference worth $1400. (To me, anyway.) The point of the post was to suggest that since the two tables are designed quite similarly, perhaps a tweaked & modded TD-150 would be somewhere in the ballpark of an LP-12.And the LP-12 SHOULD be built better. It costs 10 times more than the TD-150.
If I could afford it, I'd buy one. So where are these cheap LP-12s hiding? There are 3 on Audiogon now, the cheapest of which is around $1400.
Have you modded your TD-150 if I may ask? Just curious.
Cheers & happy listening,
Bobbo :-)
I was thinking that your post was pretty biased because you compared the modern day price of a LP12 to the bargin basment used price of an TD150. If the two decks were in production at the same time, a fair comparison would be to compare the new prices at that time. I think that you are correct in thinking that the TD150 is a great deck. I have yet to do any mods to it (I am finishing up a teres right now, so the 150 is on the back burner). If I can remove the bearing, I am planing on fabricating a carbon fiber subplinth for the 150, but that is a ways in the future.
Yup, I reckon the price disparity may have been a bit off. I never thought of the fact that they were spaced apart by a few years. My fixer-upper Thorens was $50 & the used LP-12s I could find were still in the $1500 range. I can afford $50 for a table. But an armless $650 table of any kind is still out of my price range, at least for the forseeable future.BTW, I don't think an unmodded, untweaked TD-150 is anything to write home about. Especially the Mk.I with that Godawful clunky arm they stuck on there. (The later arm was reportedly much better.) I was comparing an upgraded, damped, modded TD-150 with a good arm like a Linn, Rega, SME, etc. to a stock LP-12 with a similar arm. I think if you performed the right mods to that 150, you'd be pleasantly surprised. It's still (usually, at least) a much cheaper alternative to the venerable LP-12.
Regardless, the Linn is a classic & great table and I never meant to infer otherwise. Enjoy it. I sure would!
Cheers,
Bobbo :-)
TD150 vs LP12 well I have a TD150mkII that I have made a new plinth out of Oak about the same size as the Linn a linn armboard a Rega RB250 arm rewired & express heavyweight , 16V motor power by a Project Speedbox PSU changes 60Hz to 50Hz alot like a Lingo also Linn springs longer bolts for the springs,the table looks like a linn and it sound GREAT!!! Alot like a Linn
yes, i'd like to know too. i would definitely come up with $500 if an LP12 surfaced at that price - even if i had to sell some internal organs. :)
I bought a Linn with the basic power supply, SME III tonearm, NOS Dynavector cart, a crazy amount of extras (carbon brush, kinetic barrier mat, mounting screws, Lube, extra belts and alignment protractor) for $600. I sold the arm for $300, put a rewired rega (total of $150). I had to change the unit from 220 to 120, but that was just a matter of the removal of a cap and new power cord. I bought this guy on ebay, and I think people were scared because it was in the US and wired for 220.
I just saw a LP12 on Audiogon for $650 without arm, and quite a few have gone for cheaper on Ebay. It is not as easy as going out and picking them off the vine, but if you search around, you will be rewarded.
I'm a bit late in here and I've read all the posts: I have both a TD150 with SME 3009 II imp arm tweaked etc and a LP12 Lingo Ittok LVIII with DV17MkII. I love both. They both produce music well, though between them it is obvious which is better. But imho for what it's worth I'd say that the old Thorens bearing in mind it's nearly 40 years old offers 70 pc of the performance. Mine cost 140 quid inc arm and tweaking. The Linn 2nd hand was 600 euros. I'm keeping both.
It's a shame this informative post turned into a p#$%ing contest. Mr. Moderator, if you do any editing, please be sure to leave the "good stuff."D
I think that those bearings look positively wimpy compared to my TD124. So there! :)
Tubes forever
Match Point
While I suppose some will take this post as a "dis" on Linn, I don't think it was intended that way, and I think the information presented is very interesting and helpful. Thanks for taking the time to post the pictures. I agree, it would be fun to do a "shoot out" and see which one comes out on top. Makes me wonder how many differences we'd find if we compared CD transports from one brand to the next...
But with a tweaked TD-150, I doubt the difference would be huge. But you never know.Cheers,
Bobbo :-)
I have both, and I think the Thorens may have the better bearing. It is at least as good. That said, there isn't a dime's worth of difference between them, and both the Lenco and the Rek-O-Kut have better bearing assemblies.
which lenco are you thikg of
I have rim drive and a belt drive- the belt one surpassed a Michell trascriptor, but have not tried the other one yet
steve
The ider Lenco with the heavy platter is the one to get.
I never said they were the same. I said "The bearing also looks similar in design and size." And it is. My point is the LP-12 was closely based on the TD-150. Actually more accurately, the LP-12 is based on the Ariston RD-11, which is based on the TD-150.And I never said there weren't differences. I did question whether the differences that do exist between a modded TD-150 with say, a Linn arm and the stock LP-12 are $1400+ dollars worth. The ringing platter issue is greatly improved with proper damping.
The bearing on my TD-150 seems fine, by the way & I think it sounds great. Honestly, I have nothing against an LP-12. I do think it would be a cool experiment to put a modded TD-150 against the stock LP-12 with the same arm & cartridge & ABX compare the two.
Happy listening,
Bobbo :-)
Add an Origin Live motor setup to the TD150. Now, ask if the Linn is worth $900 difference. You see where I'm going with this? My point is that if you want to max out a TD150, the argument is moot.I love my Linn, but my mind remains open to alternatives. The problem with high-end audio in general is that too many people put too much faith in preconceived notions. Fortunately, there are those who are not afraid to think outside the box. It isn't all about money, either. Rather, it is about the quest for good sounding music.
Some of us like to tweak almost as much as we like to listen to music. That's who we are. I can appreciate it if you aren't a DIY guy, however. The fact that effort to improve the turntable is involved doesn't make it wrong, unnecessary or futile. To some it is great fun.
Personally, I don't get the guy who spends his time cleaning records, but surely you realize that some people have a mechanical nature. Some restore old cars, build ships in bottles, whatever. Fixing up old turntables is part of this hobby for some guys. It really is that simple.
Dave
Later Gator,
Crank up your talking machine, grab a jar of your favorite "kick-back", sit down, relax, and let the good times roll.The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
You zoomed right over my head with that one, but it has been a Hell of a day.
Read my post again. Everything I just said that I said, I did say. And if you got an LP-12, great for you. That's a helluva deal. Most of us aren't as lucky. And I never implied that an LP-12 sucked. I also never compared a stock TD-150 with an LP-12. If you re-read my post, you'll get that.The modding & tweaking took me maybe 2 or 3 days, working in my spare time. Not a bad time investment if you consider the jump in performance it yielded.
"(I) do consider it more sensible to spend the time *listening* to LPs rather than tweak-tweak-tweak"
A: Some of us like the tweaking process & consider it part of the hobby.
B: After initial modding, my TD150 has cost me nothing to own either. And the modding was cheap to begin with.
C: The "tweak-tweak-tweak" took a couple of days. Big deal.
"They wouldn't *be necessary* if the basic unit was to a high standard"
Sure, a stock TD-150 isn't built to as high a standard as an LP-12. But it's pretty easy & cheap to make it an awesome sounding table. And it shouldn't be built to as high a standard as an LP-12 for the kind of bucks an LP-12 commands.
Original MSRP of a TD-150: approx. $75.
MSRP of basic LP-12: approx $1700Cheers & happy listening,
Bobbo :-)
back·ped·al (băk'pĕd'l)
intr.v., -aled or -alled, -al·ing or -al·ling, -als or -als.1. To move the pedals of a bicycle or similar vehicle backward, especially to apply a brake.
2. To move backward by taking short quick steps, as in boxing or football.Here's the one I think you're accusing me of:
3. To retreat or withdraw from a position or attitude: The senator later backpedaled on the issue.
Please point out exactly where I did this.
Cheers,
Bobbo :-)
It would be especially "ironic" if frankwm was actually an Americain...
Actually, that's pretty funny. The only truly precocious Canadian that I know is Neil49, though. :D
My LP 12 sounded better than TD 150, 160 and 166 and 125 in the late 70's head on head. Whatever that means, you judge. It still is running perfectly, no Valhalla, etc.
Not at all... The LP-12 is an awesome table and a very nice piece of engineering. And I'd own one if I could afford it. The point of my post is that for those who can't afford an LP-12, a properly modded & tweaked TD-150 is pretty damn excellent. And I'm not the only one who thinks so. Sure, the stock table with the old clunky Mk. I arm is nothing special, but I'm talking about the modded and damped version which improves upon the issues that Linn improved upon with the LP-12.Never in my post did I "diss" the LP-12. Don't have a cow, man.
Cheers,
Bobbo :-)
.
Maybe it's an anti-Linnie thread, but it isn't an anti-Linn thread. I like the LP12, but I also appreciate the ingenuity of those who can make the Thorens better. Those concepts walk hand in hand, especially since Linn was one who made the Thorens better first. ;)
Your posts make a lot of sense, thanks for posting. As I have posted several times, my friend has been building plinths and modding TD's and his work is just one example of a great mod. He uses isospikes, fixes issues, makes an armboard etc. See link.I have my old LP 12 and started to use it again, instead of cdp. I really enjoy it, and music is a joy even with thrift store LP's. As you said, I am not a Linnie, but a Linn LP 12 owner. Mine was purchased with Basik Plus arm for under $400 in 1977 or 1978, cannot remember, 2nd hand. Someone stole a new one I owned and babyed.
BTW, I liked the pics of the 2 tables side by side! AR's aren't bad either (got an ES-1 for my bro, still perfect).
- http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5769804006&isPrinterFriendly=1 (Open in New Window)
Thanks. It's nice to be appreciated!I saw the photos of your friend's turntable when he started the auction. He does great work!
I suppose my definition of Linnie shouldn't be so constrained to mean only those who think the Linn LP12 is the only turntable in the world, but I'm afraid that some actually feel that way. Right now my Linn is offline because I'm listening to a Rek-O-Kut, and believe it, or not, I like what I'm hearing. I suppose a true Linnie would never listen to a Rek-O-Kut, would he? Well, if that's the case, it's his loss.
If we keep an open mind about this stuff, maybe we won't always have to wait for some factory to build a better mousetrap. That can't be a bad thing.
Sadly the only effective theraputic modality for Linnies is group therapy, many Linnieopaths go through life adrift and undiagnosed ;-)I wonder if I'm the guy he is referring to ? Actually I spend about
3 to 4 minutes per LP on average.Regards Fred
I didn't find the article that you referred to, but it doesn't surprize me, as record cleaning like anything else in the world of the analophile can easily reach th point of either wretched excess and or absurdity., by Groundhog day you're talking about having a Deja V all over again ;-)Regards FredJ
Since I may have contributed to this ruckus from my post below, let me say I am an LP12 owner also, but no hard core Linnie. The modded Thorens just sounds much better to my ears in my listening environment. Is the LP 12 bad? Absolutely, not! But, when I apply the law of diminishing returns to upgade the Linn to sound as nice as this old TD150, it just doesn't make sense to spends lots of money on the Linn. Anyway, I am enjoying purchasing and listening to old vinyl again with my new/old Thorens.
Exactly, I don't own a Linn but many of the guys I respect for their depth of knowledge and experience do, including my dealer friend, but I've never had an opportunity to buy a Linn at what I would consider a reasonable price.
Perhaps I'm reletively easily amused but I love buying nice Vintage equipment that has issues on the cheap, and then getting it back to at least it's former performance level and beyond with minimal outlay and complication the old Thorens decks are particularly well suited for the purpose.Regards FredJ
Fred,
Those LPs will play longer if you play them at 33 1/3.
78 is too fast for the modern records. ;)
Thanks for the heads up on that one ! I tried it and Caruso no longer sounds like Alvin of Alvin or the Chipmunks, can't wait to spin Leon Redbone and see what he sounds like on 33 1/3 ;-)Regards Fred
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