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Hi,I'm into my third year of vinyl enjoyment and this year I went for a Grado green cartridge as my replacement. I've previously used a goldring electra and a rega super bias. Initially the grado seemed ok, not as good as the rega, but not bad considering it's half the price, but on extended listening Im not so sure.
It seems to have a kind of 'heavy' or 'dark' sound that comes out especially on dark sounding tracks. Is this standard for the 'grado sound' or should I suspect some mis-alignment?
Thanks
Follow Ups:
I bought an $800 Grado for my P25. It sucked. Mids and voices were incredible, everything else was poor. Replaced it with a Dyna 20xh, everything got right in line and sounds great.
I have never heard anyone descrive them as dark. Maybe you have the VTA or VTF set wrong?
Rob
I've 4 or 5 of them in my lifetime and always have had electrostatic speakers. Grados were either smooth or slightly dark, but never bright.
Grados are weighty but are not slow.
Grados problems are "dance", sybilance, and so so tracking, but not slow sound IMHO, I find them quite dynamic.
However, stock RB250 sounds slow and 'muddy' on P2 table. Than your system all together is not very resolving, so livelier cartrdiges may be better match.
As much as grado dance and sound: WHEN Grado dances you will hear and see it. It is not permanent phenomenon, but occasional. It affects the sound whan it is present, on some records and , otherwise
To an extent it is the Grado sound. Grados tend to be warm and weighty sounding, but that also means they can have a tendency to sound slow, ponderous and muffled.However, in the lower price range it is not easy to get a cartridge that is fast, articulate and open, that is not also shrill sounding, particulary when such cartridges are being used with less than top-notch electronics. You could try a Shure cartridge, they tend to be more neutral sounding (less romantic).
That is about as thorough an answer as one might hope for. I would add that the Green is the lowest end of the Grado design scale in terms of performance. It has a nicer stylus than the Black, but otherwise it is not a very good way to rate Grado cartridges in general as the better ones sound much more lively and extended. I would say that his set-up is fine and that is just the way the cartridge should sound on his rig, especially when compared to the Rega cartridge which is much more dynamic and crisp on top. I am not a fan of the Shure sound though and think that they are equally as dull as the lower end Grados, yet never develop that lovely midrange and top end sweetness that the better Grados are famous for. Many people like the Shures and there is certainly nothing wrong with their quality, it is even legendary. I just find that there are a lot of better sounding cartridges out there to my ear. It sounds almost like the original poster is just experiencing the different shortcomings of the more affordable cartridges and is wanting to get a really high fidelity sound. It's going to take at least $200 to get there and that is just the tip of the iceberg to get something seriously better. To give him an idea of what it can take to get all of the performance available from a table, I have a $600 cartridge on my $700 table and find that it is noticably better than the $350 cartridge that it replaced. I think that is about the limit of the table however and I will be looking at improving that (by replacing it) next, if I ever get to that point!
-Bill
It could be an allignment issue or more likely a damping issue. The Grados shake a bit sometimes due to resonant frequency. They seem to do this, on average, more than other cartridges.The biggest of the shakes are known as the Grado dance. There are lots of threads about this. They can also shake just a little bit. This creates a bit of warbling sometimes.
I find that the suspentions stiffen up over time, so eventually the problem is mitigated. This would be true only if your arm is a correct match to the Grado.
Hi,Thanks for your reply. Do you mean the tracking force is too light? I did the tracking force by sight as three quarter turns of a rega counter weight after balance. I wondered if this was the same formula for a heavy cartridge like the grado.
The arm is stock goldging gr1 which seemed to produce a very low tracking angle in the rega cart, which was installed by dealer and sounded ok, and a VERY slighly high angle in the grado.
Thanks
You really should get a tracking force gauge. Shure makes a serviceable one for less than $25. I have the same arm in my NAD 533 and you can only roughly guestimate VTF. I use the My Weigh Axe digital gauge (I know . . . funky name, but if you see one you see why). It runs less than $50. The Grado should be set at the high end of the recommended range.Henry
Necessity is a mother . . .
The infamous Grado "dance" is caused by a tonearm and cartridge mis-match. Basically the resonance frequency and mass of the tonearm are in the wrong range for the Grado's cantilever's suspension compliance. You can mitigate the problem through playing with VTF, anti-skate, and even VTA; but ultimately the best solution is to move on and either use a different arm or cartridge. Grado's do sound "dark" when this mismatch is present. There is no real remedy that would do the Grado any justice.Good luck,
Ray
The Grado is a fine match for the Rega arms and will work perfectly well without any "dancing".
-Bill
I had a Grado platinum on a planar 3 once and on the 1st track
the whole arm cartridge body could easily be seen to wiggle and
giggle ferociously.It did the famed Grado Dance.As it got into
the second or 3rd track it would then settle down.
You may have had an issue with the platform or the Lp. I have set-up LOTS of Grados, of all types, and never seen that on any Rega table. One off-hand experience points to nothing other than circumstances.
Sorry,
Bill
If my case was isolated I would agree.But the fact is this condition
has happened to so many people they have a nickname for the problem.
"The Grado Dance".Many people have heard the term and feel it is
caused by a bad compliance match.The Grados also hum on Regas at the
end of the record.Sometimes annoyingly so.What did you mean by
platform problem? I have never heard that term before.Did you mean
what the table was sitting on?
what the table was sitting on. I have to disagree here on the marriage of the two however as I don't have any problem ever with Grado/Rega being a bad mate. They are great matches as far as mass/compliance goes and sound very nice together. The only thing that dances are the listeners! Also the only issue concerning the Grado that anyone has even been curious about here has been a very slight hum at the end of an Lp with a near silent passage on some classical Lps. On any other Lp, it is not even an issue as the carts sound great and people actually prefer it to others even with the hum as it is so low that they find it to be laughable once they hear it demonstarted for them. In fact the exact match that you had, well a P3 and a Platinum, was so well received by one fellow here that his co-worker came in a few weeks later and bought the exact same set-up as he was so impressed after hearing his buddy's rig. I just can't agree with hearsay when I have tons of actual physical evidence, sorry. There can be other explanations and perhaps you are confusing an older S-shaped arm with an older Grado cartridge or another table, but no current Rega arm will cause a Grado to "dance".
-Bill
As far as my experience goes, the one thing that makes Grados sound "dark", "dance", and become real nuisances is when there is a poor arm/cartidge marriage.
A problematic resonance can be found with any cartridge/arm mis-match. The Grado "dance" got it's name as the resonance is visible due to the rather high compliance of the cartridge when mated to an arm that is susceptible and too high of mass. This was more of a problem with their older cartridges and has been brought more to a standard for the more popular low-to-medium mass arms today. It is a fairly bulky unit though and when fitted to a Rega arm, which is considered a medium mass arm but perhaps is a little on the light side, the Grado does not cause the arm to resonate. In fact, Rega arms are exceptionally immune to resonance due to their unique design which makes them a favorite (the favorite if you want to do the math) among audiophiles worldwide.
The Grado cartridges have a smoother sound due to their design and manufacturing. You can read about their "OTL" cantilever design and their "Flux-Bridger" magnetic generator systems on their website. This is not hype like what you might find at a cable makers site, but physical differences from other designs with the two basic concepts being dampening and low mass (not necessarily in that order), but for the "why the dark sound?", then that would be it.
-Bill
Would you say the platinum is an older design that had this problem?
As far as I know that cart is still current and I had that problem.
I never found the sound bad though.It just didn't appear to track
well.
Duane
I didn't or at least did not intend to. I mean to say that it is possible that an older model Grado had a mis-match issue (from the tales of others). It is also possible that the original Rega "Planet" table or Planar 2, using the old S-shaped arm had the same issue with Grados. Current Grados and current Regas work great. like I said, I've tried them all and NEVER had any trouble with any "dancing". I have installed the Grados on Rega arms on other brands of tables also with excellent results. Only the drunks and silly girls dance here...
-Bill
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