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There have been several recent postings regarding Carbon Fiber brushes. One poster went as far as to post a photo of the "damage" which a brush was responsible for. Can we revisit this subject? Whenever I purchase records from flea markets or at shows they get cleaned with a Nitty Gritty (with or without the use of DD brushes and RRL fluid if really necessary). Before each playing they get a brushing from my Hunt (EDA Mark 6) brush. The needle on my LP12 gets a Linn "green sandpaper" treatment after each side plays.I recently have stopped using the Hunt brush based on my memory of the photograph which was posted. Any feedback-tips etc? The best brush? Best technique?
Follow Ups:
I don't know what the photo was based on, but I've been using carbon fiber brushes as long as they've been available, I own or have owned and used every CF brush over the years and while some of the cheap knock offs aren't as effective,I've never experienced(or even heard of anyone credible)any sort of damage whatsoever,even when I'd consumed mass quantities of Knob Creek ;-)
I think the Audioquest, Hunt, Goldring Caarbon fiber brushes are all worth their wieght in gold easily as indispensable as wet cleaning,
however to use them properly takes a little finese which apparently
isn't sommething everyone posses.
It sounds to me like your cleaning/playing regimen is perfectly fine
I use the RRL for all my wet cleaning now as I've found it works
superbly, I just don't bother with the RRL Deep unless the LP's are
really dirty. I find The RRL Vinyl wash is fine for most well cared for used or new vinyl unless it's got abad dose of MRA.
I use the green sandpaper as well, but earlier this year I got one of those Zen Dust pads you just either lower the stylus onto the pad
or carefully lift the pad to contact the stylus and the tacky blob of polymer effectively pulls all manner of crud hairs etc. off the stylus, when the pad is covered with crap you rinse it off under warm water and when it's really funky put a tiny bit of soap on your finger first and the pad is good as new, I still use the sand paper
but not as often, but the sandpaper will easily remove baked on crud
from a stylus better than anything else, I doubt if it will actually be harmful but I think every side is a bit excessive, you might want to try the Zen Dust someone on Audiogon is selling them for $30 andd those are perfect for every side use.
Regards fredj
Fred,You can find the image on the link below.
Styx
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AvianArt
I remember the photo from when it was originally posted, strange indeed, I attributed it to an anomoly of some sort, bad vinyl,perhaps Hunt ran out of carbon fiber and used silicon carbide ;-)
My dad was known as Mr. Gadget in Audio shops as he couldn't resist
tweaks and gizmo's,particularly cleaning and maint. products and I inherited this affliction,as a result I've bought every record cleaning gizmo known to man since the early 60's and I've never seen
damage like that, I'd think you'd need to use one of those griddle cleaning bricks to do that, go figure ?
regards Fredj
I'm with you Fred. It's an obvious hoax and was either done intentionally or was an "incident at Knob Creek".
-Bill
Bill- Well said ;-)
Bill, what do you mean with hoax or intentionally ?Styx
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AvianArt
By their definitions. Perhaps to gain attention or just for grins. It is simply not possible with a normal carbon fiber brush, using the Hunt EDA as the example. Another would be the Audioquest brush. They are extremely fine and have almost no surface resistance. If anything, they do too little to remove dust, not actively abrade records. They work by electrostatic charge, not by pressure. If someone received a sample that had no bristles but adhesive or bare plastic and was ignorant enough to scour a piece of vinyl with it, then it could be that the vinyl could be scratched.
I may not be the sharpest at physics, but I have engineered my way out of a load of wet paper bags and I know for a fact that a harder material will scratch a softer material in a second. So unless the vinyl was abused by a harder material or by the application of a huge amount of force, or both, then it is simply not possible to achieve that level of damage. I also don't believe that anyone is ignorant enough to have applied that much pressure (although I cracked a 78 shellac ages ago, as a kid by cleaning it on my mattress rather than on a hard, flat surface - another lesson in engineering!) with anything soft such as the brushes in question to cause that. Therefore it's a hoax. The only possible other cause for the initial stir would be that the record was scratched previously from another incident (whether at Knob Creek or elsewhere!) and not noticed by the original poster until after the "light cleaning" with the Hunt brush. In that case, he would have simply and falsely placed blame on the brush as he was unaware of any prior damage. Otherwise it was intentional...
-Bill
Than just call me ignorant. Because this happened to me. I do not blame it on the brush I blame it on me because I used it before reading the instructions. Now let me clarify it. I bought a new HUNT brush from a well known audio dealer. I than used it on my 45rpm Mendelssohn, which was a mistake in the first place, as I was using the Audioquest brush. I did put it on the LP like the Audioquest. After a few revs. I pushed it down and dragged it over the LP. And this was the error. I did than send the brush back. The record was new. And I was looking for a more efficient way to clean my LP's. Perhaps the brush was defect. I don't know. There is no hoax, because that would mean I want to trick someone, which I certainly not. And it was not intentionally, because that would mean that I am stupid, which I am not either. After all this record is about $50. I just made a mistake, and in my opinion the people on this board should know about it to not make the same 'stupid' mistake.Styx
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AvianArt
and I have no issues nor problems with my CF brush.No way, no how, that those carbon fibres would damage a record that was already mostly clean.
I suppose if you were scrubbing the record with sulferic acid and using your brush to swish it around.... then yes, there would be damage.
Randy
I need a crowd of people.....
I just can't face them day to day
--- Neil Young
Hi,I posted this photograph. The scratches came from misusing. I used the HUNT brush like I was used from the Audioquest Carbon Fiber Brush. But this is the wrong way. You are not supposed to go back over the whole LP. I did send it back. IMO a brush should not be so complicated to use. Anyways, the scratches on the LP look ugly but are not audible. At the moment I don't even use my Audioquest Carbon Fiber Brush because it does not really get the dust of the record. It actually gets my record static. Which is even worse. I use a canned air blower, pretty expensive I know, but it gets the job done until I find a better solution. Regarding the needle cleaning I use a peace from a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser. I think Doug Deacon, (sp?) did post this trick on 'agon, thanks Doug. I clean the stylus after each side of playing. You just cut a peace off of the Magic Eraser, like 5mm long, and stick a tooth pick thru. Than you clean your stylus with it like with a Last Stylus Brush. Be very careful, as always when you clean the stylus. And of course do it on your own risk. I had no problems yet. And my stylus tip is as clean as on the first day. I have a 30x microscope, it rather looks like a pen. There I actually can see after each play how dirty the needle really is. Even with a 'clean' record.
Styx
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AvianArt
The carbon fibers are conductive and any quality CF Brush is designed
with a copper wire connected to the handle IMHO there is no way the CF Brush could impart a static charge unless you're a source of static. Your static problems are sourced elsewhere.
I've found that a very light to almost no pressure on the record surface works best particularly for sweeping the dust the brush has dredged up off the record surface.
I've found the cheap knock off CF brushes arent as supple as the Audioquest brush fibers, the knock off CF's can dig out dust and stuff but they aren't very good at whisking it off the record.
Fred,as you could read, I have the Audioquest brush. Yesterday I took a wire were I did connect one end to my phono-preamp and the other end to the Audioquest. After 2-3 rev. 'cleaning' the record was so static that it almost sucked the rubber mat from the platter. I than took the one end, which was connected to the Audioquest, and moved it slowly over the LP. I could hear the static dissapear. BTW, I live in FL, the humidty is around 80% here at the moment and our AC has a humidification system inbuilt, which makes it 50% in the house. I have a Zerostat, which works, but not with the record on the platter. I first have to lift it of the platter. Which is to late because the record is than dirty. And it absolutely depends which record I clean. e.g. MFSL records almost don't get any static at all. Others get static when I just look at them. Now, tell me what else could I do wrong. I appreciate the input.
Thanks
Styx
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AvianArt
Styx-You've got some bizzare static anomalies going on, generally static isn't problematic till you're well below 50% RH, and the Audioquest brush couldn't possibly impart static uless you're charged up.
I live in Wisconsin and it can gedt so cold up here that Flashers just describe themselves ;-) but when it's ass blistering cold and you have forced air heat it gets extremely dry in the house and that's about the only time I experience static problems, except with my Sota Sapphire which is either demonically possesed, or the dust cover is a static collector because it behaves similarly to what you describe (with the exception of the Audioquest phenomenon)
Just a guess but do you have high tension lines overhead or close by ? I was the staff Geologist for an engineering consulting firm right out of the Univ. and while on a drilling job for the army Corps of environmental degradation ;-) we were doing drilling on the earthen portion of a huge hydroelectric dam with the high tension lines overhead on on certain days the air was so alive it would make the hair stand up on the back of your neck, any more stray voltage and i think we would have all looked like Don King.
You might want to put in a dedicated ground and or check to see if your household grids ground is actually connected or the connection is comprimised (don't go mucking about with the bix unless you have some expertise, in that case prevail upon a knowledgeable friend or
a real electrician the system grounds are comprimised in a lot of instances and a lot of noise problems have been obviated by a proper ground.
regards fredj
Actually my Linn dealer (one of the best Scottish setup men in the USA) wants me to green sandpaper after every side. Maybe in retrospect this might be a bit too much (maybe after each LP both sides will be better). However according to the Linn dogma they don't even believe in cleaning your records. They claim that the stylus does it! (thus the reason for the green sandpaper)
Boy I sure would not listen to this stupid advice. Just because someone has been in analog for forty years does not make him an expert. If you use common sense you would see that a clean record to start with makes sense. This is the funniest and stupidest thing I have read hear on the asylum.
Quote from Linn Magazine:
"The dust that inevitably collects on records is not harmful: it's on the surface, not in the grooves containing the signal. Attempts to remove the dust usually force the dust down into the grooves, where it does damage. The best method of cleaning records is to let the stylus remove the dust, then clean it."A stylus can't force dust lying on the surface of the record down into the grooves because its point of contact with the record is below the surface. A brush attempts to pick up dust from the surface as well as from in the grooves and, according to Linn, usually ends up pushing at least some dust that was lying harmlessly on the record surface down into the grooves where it can be impacted by the stylus as it plays. A stylus "cleans" the record in the sense that some of the dust on the record surface will cling to the stylus shank during play.
They must be smoking the Heather,or only listening to military marches with Bagpipes ;-)
all kidding aside can you imagine what your vinyl would sound like.
"However according to the Linn dogma they don't even believe in cleaning your records."Then what are you doing with a brush in the first place? Did your dealer sell that to you? I think you should just follow Linn dogma and not bother cleaning your records with anything other than the stylus, then continue giving it a swipe or two with the green paper at the end of each side.
I detect a note of sarasm, no ? ;-) The Green sandpaper thing actually works, in fact I've come to believe it's a good deal safer as well as easier than liquid stylus cleaners,as most are alcohol based and will over time undermine the cement used to bond the diamond and or will be drawn up the hollow cantilever by capillary action probably not a good thing for the suspension or the elecricals.
My local dealer(the owner and my friend) have been hard core analog audiophiles for at least 40 years,have been dealing Linn, VPI
Rega etc.all along and several years ago I asked my friend what he uses for stylus cleaner and he produced a couple little squares of the Linn recommended green sandpaper, I was quite skeptical, but I've learned to trust these guys implicitly, they gave me the sandpaper, it lasts forever(I had to hit them up for a couple more as my kitty's would run off with it when they were kittens) you just very lightly pull it across the stylus tip(back to front) a few MM's, the first time you domit without turning down the gain it sounds really gnarly, but if anything I'm getting longer service life from my styli
likely because being quick and easy you end up doing it more.
I also use a Zen Dust pad now and just alternate or use whichever is handy.
Regards fredj
No sarcasm here. I haven't cleaned a record at home since the mid-eighties, when I bought an LP12, and I used the Linn-recommended practice of cleaning my stylus with a matchbook striker before the green sandpaper came out. Linn also recommended the use of a dry, vibrating pad cleaner for an occasional more thorough cleaning.
Ahh, those Linnies, they are an unusual lot. For a real lesson in Linn-ese, try digesting the operating manual for the Unidisc SE...
As anyone who has done a good cleaning to a record can testify that there is almost always an improvement in sound, even on new pressings.And common sense would dictate that at that point to keep it as dust free as possible at that point.
I dont want to listen to the sound of my records getting cleaned. I would rather listen to the music that is trapped beneath the gunk.
Hi,I have to admit that I like the AQ carbon fiber brush much better than the Hunt one, but this could simply be because my TT is not a high torque one. When I use the AQ brush, I slide it across the grooves and brush the dust off the edge. I find the Hunt brush more difficult to use in that the felt portion tends to grip and stall rotation ON MY TT. If I use it per the instructions and rotate it slightly without dragging it across the grooves, it leaves a line of dust behind. Every time. When I try to drag it across, it stalls the platter rotation. I suspect that the Hunt would be better on TTs with more torque but I must say that I personally think that for dust removal only, the good ol' Discwasher works just as good as these. No damage results from any of these brushes as far as I can tell.
BTW, Dale is giving you good advice below. You clearly are wearing your precious stylus at a greatly accelerated rate.
Joe-I use the Audioquest as well as the Extatic (Identical to the Hunt) I don't believe it's meant to be used in the same manner as the audioquest as far as sliding it across the record,the carbon fiber bristles are too stiff, it just won't effectively move the crud that way, the velvet pad is there to pick up the dust, you simply use a tooth brush to sweep the crud off the pad.
I find the Hunt type brush great for LP's after they've been wet cleaned as the stiffer CF bristles will dig out quite a bit of post cleaning crap, then I'll follow up with the audioquest to remove anything the velvet didn't pick up.
Regards fredj
Hey,Funny you mention using the AQ after using the Hunt. I actually was thinking the same thing as the other day I had some fibrous stuff that the AQ wouldn't touch. I got out the Hunt and it lined it up nicely. Once it was knocked loose, the AQ moved it along.
I saw a new brush today in the Music Direct catalog (I was like a kid with a new toy just drooling over this new catalog - too cool!) can't remember it's name but it mentioned it having both carbon fiber and some other (polyaramid or something) fiber for strength. Might be worth a look.
Joe
I spent an hour in my recliner in an altered state last night drooling over the cool analog stuff the brush you mentioned may be the Decca Brush which "amazingly enough" ;-) I bought a while back it has 2 rows of bristles and you can slide out the carrier and there are 2 rows of longer brisles, to be honest I haven't used it enough to determine it's reletive utility, but didn't Will Rogers say " I never met a record cleaning brush I didn't like" ;-)did you notice the new Music Direct "Knock off" of the DD brushes at a considerably more reasonable cost in the Music direct catalog ?
Have been using one or another version of the Decca record brush (carbon fibre) since the 70's. Have never experienced anything like the damage being described.
nt
I have used both Audioquest CF brush and Hunt brush without any ill effect what so ever.
If you don't see any of this effect on your records then you’re OK.Do you really green sandpaper your stylus after playing each side of an LP?
If so, you’re maintenance regimen is WAY to aggressive!
With worrying about invisible CF brush marks and sanding you stylus after every side play how do you relax to enjoy your music..?
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