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It looks as if the horse named Machina Dynamica has finally been beaten to death.
Perhaps this one should be taken for a spin:
"The central problem with the conventional model is that elevating a cable from the floor with an electrical insulator creates a relative static charge differential between the cable and floor. Over a period of time this static differential can become enormous -- sometimes exceeding tens of thousands of volts. When an electrical signal is sent through the cable, the signal can become distorted or inter-modulated by the static electrical field differential between the cable and floor."
Audio tweak retailers - giving science fiction novelists a run for their money!
Follow Ups:
What else do you have left to look forward to? LOL
Among many other things, those few and far between days/evenings when I get to sit down, listen, and be reminded of how accurate the frequency response and presentation is of my current set-up. And all without the worry or hassle of multiple wallet-draining tweaks that are, ironically, destined to do nothing more than ease one's mind.
"What else do you have left to look forward to?"> > > "Among many other things, those few and far between days/evenings when I get to sit down, listen, and be reminded of how accurate the frequency response and presentation is of my current set-up" < < <
Wouldn't it be fair to add the following, to your list of leisure time activity?:
Searching websites, cutting and pasting manufacturer information on chat forums, and then starting a thread to pot-shot whatever strikes you as wrong in a completely ill-informed manner..?That takes a lot more free time than most people would have on their hands of an evening. You spent some considerable time ridiculing products you know nothing about -- with no consequence or understanding of the measurable science involved--just for the pleasure of trashing something. The internet can be a great place for arm-chair tough guys (one hand in chips, another on the key pad). I find it ironic that your mind is free of the worry of "wallet-draining tweaks" yet here you are, the peoples champion.
Grant
Shunyata Research
Edits: 10/17/08 10/17/08
"eliminating the usual color dyes, carbon and ferrous metals that Shunyata believes degrades degrade performance"Can you prove what you believe with measurable science? We both believe in many things, but that makes neither one of us right or wrong.
For the record, I did not surf the web looking for a product to bash. Your risers were included in an email from The Cable Company recently. I found them to be far fetched and wondered if there was anyone on these boards that might have some background on the affects of a static field on an audio signal propogating through an insulated conductor.
No comment on the lack of proof-read prior to publish...
Edits: 10/18/08
> > > "eliminating the usual color dyes, carbon and ferrous metals that Shunyata believes degrades degrade performance" "Can you prove what you believe with measurable science?" < < <
Realizing how off far off base you were with your initial slack jawed criticisms, you now change the argument and come up with new ones. Classic. This could go on forever.
Regarding dye's? No we have no measurement for that, but then that was not what the discussion was covering nor what I intended as measurable science, was it?
Ferrous metal proximity effects on a signal may not be measurable, but like other things it is explainable and a fairly accepted concept among many who know a bit about electronics design.
Obviously, you know very little about the arguments you are making, and you are taking issue with someone who has a background as an NSA research scientist. Someone that helped develop many of the US military's signal acquisition systems.
No one came here touting anything, but we do have the right to defend legitimate products and design ideas from ill informed internet hobbyists with an agenda.
> > ."I found them to be far fetched and wondered if there was anyone on these boards that might have some background on the affects of a static field on an audio signal propogating through an insulated conductor." < < <
You didn't *wonder* anything. You couldn't wait to throw the first rock and hop on the pile. C'mon, you have no real curiosity or need to know. You had an opinion and you decided to use it as a weapon in a forum where you could sling with relative anonymity.
Thank you for catching my typo. I have written over 60 pages of content on our web, I am sure some can excuse us missing that one. I have had it corrected.
Once you are reduced to pointing out a text error, wouldn't it seem prudent to find another target for your campaign?
"we do have the right to defend legitimate products and design ideas from ill informed internet hobbyists with an agenda"
We have a right to question questionable products if we chose. I can't think of any other branch of the electronic industry where products like this exist. That alone brings a big question mark.
> > > "I can't think of any other branch of the electronic industry where products like this exist." < < <
Really? What about anti-static products used in the packing, manufacturing and handling of integrated circuits, computer systems and chip sets?
What about in office use, as grounded static hard mats under office chairs keep day workers from stimulating a charge that can shock their computers into lock up?
How about the shipment of sensitive electrical instruments and parts? What do they use? It is called *conductive foam*. Ring a bell?
Does any of that count? How about Anti-static bags used to ship and package many types of cabling and electronics?
Nordost's own Eco-3 spray, used to effectively neutralize/treat static build up from their teflon insulated conductors.
The list is almost endless, and that is just within the electronics industry you referenced, there are thousands of other examples and static related products in other industries as well. As I have written several times now, these are not alien concepts or products. You can choose to accept or discard as you wish. It's the incessant ill informed chirping and name calling that gets bothersome.
You have every right to question whatever you like. Let's leave it there, unless you are concerned enough to call, or heaven forbid seek direct experience with products that so upset you. We both know your interest level relates only to the exploits of hifidave and his yahoo street cred.
You claim: "elevating a cable from the floor with an electrical insulator creates a relative static charge differential between the cable and floor. Over a period of time this static differential can become enormous -- sometimes exceeding tens of thousands of volts."So which has the higher static charge that is causing this differential, the cable or the floor? If it's a wood floor, it must be the cable.
If it's a carpeted floor, the carpet is neutral. It can produce a static charge on another object when that object is dragged across it, but carpet does not inherently possess an over-abundance of electrons or a static charge. If it did, it would shock you every time you walked onto it. So again, if there is a static differential being produced, the cable must possess the higher charge.
So is a speaker cable with it's relatively low voltage/current and insulated conductors capable of producing a static field in the +10kv range? If it IS the cable that has the lower of the 2 charges, how is the carpet/floor acquiring the higher charge?
If all of this holds true, could one not lower their speaker cables close enough to the floor to create a spark? If the conductive foam is there to reduce/eliminate a charge differential, other than vibration concerns, one could simply lay there cables on the floor and eliminate the field altogether, could they not?
Edits: 10/20/08
Quite obviously your new round of questions are neither sincere, nor from anyone seeking honest information.Answering more of your disingenuous questions poses only two possible outcomes: Continued derision based on ill conceived or irrational argument, or another round of follow up questions, typo challenges and other time wasting inquiries.
Since I am sure you have many more productive ways to spend your time, as we do, I asked Caelin Gabriel, who designs our products, for simple answers to your (likely borrowed) questions. Since honestly motivated people may ask similar questions out of curiosity some day, we'll archive the content as faq material in more detailed form.
There is no point to any further dialogue in this context. It is a lose-lose proposition. You will never run out of questions, innuendo or finger pointing because it appears to be your nature regarding anything outside the sphere of your experience.
If you have personal issues, new attacks or concerns that need more of our time, call me directly. We'll have coffee.
Here are your pointed questions, and their answers:
> > > "You claim: "elevating a cable from the floor with an electrical insulator creates a relative static charge differential between the cable and floor. Over a period of time this static differential can become enormous -- sometimes exceeding tens of thousands of volts." < < <
This is correct. See the following Wikipedia on static charge for basic understanding of the issue:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_electricity
> > > "So which has the higher static charge that is causing this differential, the cable or the floor? If it's a wood floor, it must be the cable. " < < <
All charges are relative. Static charges are everywhere and relative to the various materials that are in close proximity to one another. One material (A) may have a relative electric charge that is negative to material (B) while simultaneously having a relative positive charge to material (C). Earth ground is commonly used as the reference for a zero charge, but it is irrelevant to the charges between any two materials since their potentials are "floating".
> > > "If it's a carpeted floor, the carpet is neutral. It can produce a static charge on another object when that object is dragged across it, but carpet does not inherently possess an over-abundance of electrons or a static charge. If it did, it would shock you every time you walked onto it. So again, if there is a static differential being produced, the cable must possess the higher charge. " < < <
Triboelectric materials each have relative charge potentials that vary according to the material. So, think of a scale that goes from strongly positive to strongly negative. Each material has a charge "potential" that lies somewhere along that scale. [NOTE: Do not confuse the term "potential" with charge. I am referring to its ability to manifest a charge; and when it manifests a charge, what that relative charge would be.] Then, you look at two materials to see where they lie on the scale relative to one another. The further apart they are on the scale, the stronger the electric potential they can manifest relative to one another.
Some materials do not generate a net electrical charge through the triboelectric effect. Steel is one of these substances. Carpet however is usually made from synthetic fibers such as polyesters that have strong negative potentials or from nylon that has a strong positive potential. None of these materials are like batteries. They do not inherently posses a net electric charge. It is only when they are activated through the close proximity of another triboelectric material, of differing electric potential, do they manifest a relative charge one to the other.
The charge between the floor and the cable is produced in two ways. The first is when the cable is installed. The cable is laid on the floor and (commonly) dragged about. When the cable is separated from the floor with a cable elevator, the triboelectric effect will be produced causing a relative electric charge between the cable and the floor material. Interesting, one of the popular types of cable elevators is made from glass. Glass is one of the highest positive triboelectric materials and cable insulation is usually a teflon or polyethylene which is very strongly negative - the net result will be a very high static charge between the elevator and the cable irrespective of the flooring material. So now you have three materials in close proximity with three different static states.
The second method in which static charges are developed is a bit more difficult to understand but none the less explainable. A cable is composed of a conductor which is usually copper, silver or copper alloy. The conductor is insulated with a dielectric - usually polypropylene, polyethylene, PVC or Teflon. The conductors have a mild negative electric "potential" while the dielectric materials are all very strongly negative. This creates a fairly powerful static charge potential difference. The "rubbing" force required by the triboelectric effect is provided by the movement of the electrons in the conductor. The constant back and forth movement of the electrons generates a static charge within the dielectric material that builds up over time. This effect is very commonly manifest in Teflon insulated cables and is why they are sometimes more dramatically affected by dry weather.
Regarding the "shocking" effect to humans. Human skin is one of the most positive potentials. So if a human comes in contact with just about any negative charge - there will be a transference of electrons to the human. This is why there are rigorous procedures and grounding devices used in the assembly of electronic LSI devices. FEELING the transference of electrons is another story all together. To feel the transference as a "shock" the electrons would need to jump across an air gap to produce a spark. Air breaks down at about 30KV per centimeter. So there can be electric static charges that are many thousands of volts without the presence of sparks.
> > > So is a speaker cable with it's relatively low voltage/current and insulated conductors capable of producing a static field in the +10Kv range? If it IS the cable that has the lower of the 2 charges, how is the carpet/floor acquiring the higher charge? < < <
see all of the above.
> > > "If all of this holds true, could one not lower their speaker cables close enough to the floor to create a spark? " < < <
Most cable elevators create a gap of greater than 2 inches. This would necessitate a static charge in excess of 150KV. Doesn't seem likely, does it?
Now, any genuine person who received this detailed answer might be satisfied given that it follows general common sense and accepted theory. My guess is you are not one of those folks, are you?
Any new round of questions? Call us directly. Enough forum space has been wasted on your net -detective quest already.
Grant
Shunyata Research
Edits: 10/20/08
Interesting stuff. Thank you. The attached link explains, in detail, my line of work. I deal with the whole positive/negative ion attraction/repulsion thing on a routine basis. So I fully understand your responses.
And for the record:
"Most cable elevators create a gap of greater than 2 inches. This would necessitate a static charge in excess of 150KV".
I didn't ask if a spark could be created using 2" risers. Also, 150kv is merely 15X "tens of thousands". The maximum distance at which a spark could be generated is proportional to the point at which the slope of the charge diffential plateaus and levels out. With the right materials, 150kv might not be an exaggeration.
"Doesn't seem likely, does it?" Not necessarily.
Why hang out at forums dedicated to tweaking?
Concern for your fellow man?
Edits: 10/17/08
moved here by the moderator(s).....
From ebony pucks to magic foil, mystical and controversial tweaks.
I assumed it was to cover the "why's" as opposed to the "how to's".
Possibly there are some misunderstandings about static electricity that have lead to your opinion. Actually, the science behind the concept is relatively easy to understand. I don't care to debate or incite more tomato tossing, so I'll share what I know and leave you to it.Static electricity can be easily measured with static field meters. In the right conditions, static fields can be measured that easily exceed the "tens of thousands of volts" mentioned. The reason people don't blow up from this seemingly huge static voltage is that there is no current behind it. That's why the small shock is what people experience, instead of fried eggs.
There are many products on the market designed to minimize or neutralize some of the adverse effects static can have on an analog signal and system performance... Eco-3 (Nordost), Zero-Stat etc... there are more than a few. Many of these products have been around for years They have equally easy to understand science behind them and years of anecdotal feedback that seems to support that they can be of some benefit.
Using conductive foam as part of a product intended to equalize the differential between measurable static electricity fields along the floor and the field surrounding signal propagation is not nether- world science. It is explainable and can be understood by laymen and engineers alike.
The other can of worms, the one that matters of course is 'do they make a worthwhile difference'. The fact that these products are available for free home trials from any authorized dealer should mean there is little left to argue about. No one is being fleeced or forced to buy, try or accept anything they feel is too far outside their comfort zone.
Hopefully this addresses some of your concerns.
If anyone has questions, issues or argument they are always welcome to call. Polite questions will always be met with specific, technically well grounded and polite answers.
Regards,
Grant
Shunyata Research
Edits: 10/13/08
good answer .....
...probably not.
Ever read any of the white papers put out by the cable manufacturers about why their cables are superior?
Actually none of the theory matters to me - the proof is in the listening - to cables and to other tweaks.
Cable risers do make a difference - perhaps these ARE superior.
Until you've actually listened to the products, you are...ignorant.
Go buy a audiophile grade tube type system, roll a few tubes, use high grade speakers that match up well with the power amplifier, make sure the source is of high quality (no MP3 junk) & forget this nonsense.
Being picky about quality audio playback is one thing. Being obsessed to the point of believing that EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE has an affect, detrimental or otherwise, is inexplicable.
"believing that EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE has an affect"
And why wouldn't we? Prevailing theory would suggest precisely that everything in the universe does have an effect. The most accurate models consider as much of the universe as possible. The tradeoff is which variables can practically be simulated using existing CPU technology while still supplying the necessary answers in a reasonable time? It is up to us as intelligent beings to be sure that our models contain the most important variables at any given simulation resolution accuracy and ARE in fact representative of reality and the truly dominant factors governing it. Then of course deciding on what kind of resolution accuracy is needed is important too.
Maybe someday I'll be able to include the dogstar in my cable simulations since I just know the damn thing is responsible for the crap I hear.....
Posy tells me he can identify a scrap of paper in the fridge by listening carefully to his system so who's to say where the line between audible and not actually lies for any given setup? It's all a matter of peeling away layers of the onion. At some level of signal reproduction perfection everything in the universe must be in place for those who can hear that well.
"Posy tells me he can identify a scrap of paper in the fridge by listening carefully to his system"
ROTFLMFAO!!!
Such a system, if set up properly, would reveal cable dress issues much more than lesser gear.
Amen!
It would make more sense to place the cable directly on the carpet so their would be no differential charge.
;)
...if you were to keep raising the wire above the floor, eventualy you would reach a height that would create such an immense difference that you could power a small city.
Everyone knows thats how high tension lines get so full of current!
...They are operating at an elevated voltage.
R.
Ahhhhh.... more snake oil....*yawn*
"Over a period of time this static differential can become enormous -- sometimes exceeding tens of thousands of volts"
WHAT?! How many volts are involved in a basic electric shock when touching another person or a door handle?
The common wisdom among solid state semiconductor folks is that it takes a potential of about 25,000 volts for an electrostatic spark to jump an inch of air.
This means that if your have a spark jump from your fingertip to an object, and it is about 1/3 of an inch long (a not uncommon situation), that almost 10,000 volts were involved.
Jon Risch
Electrostatic discharge is a serious problem for electronic devices. MIL-STD-883 is the military document that specifies the test methods. There are three equivalent circuits specified, including one called the "Human Body Model." Devices are tested at increasing voltages and classified according to the level that causes them to malfunction. The test voltages and classifications go up to thousands of volts. See the link.
A static potential of 10,000 volts across an insulating object extending several inches would not be unusual. Whether this has any influence on the sonic performance when the object is a cable lifter is another question. There have been reports of temporary improvement when static elimination material is sprayed around cables resting on carpets, so I would not dismiss the claim as "snake oil" without further investigation.
"Air typically breaks down in this way at around 30,000 volts-per-centimetre depending on humidity.[3] The discharge superheats the surrounding air causing the bright flash, and produces a shockwave causing the clicking sound."
That's why it stings your nose or, if your friends are really sicko, your zipper!
But wait, I read their replies as they mocked the manufacturers statement. I read it in black and white. Surely they must be right and the manufacturer wrong. And Wikipedia? Please!
And that's just how easy it is here in cyberspace. People just trash with nothing to back it up.............like facts. And then of course they would never even try the product, how could they!
As always with anything in audio from speakers to amps to cables and tweaks; either try before you buy or purchase from a place with a full money back return policy.
ET
More on static electricity below
There was a time back, when I worked for a Golf Bag Manufacturer . I happened to work in the Embroidery Dept , where I ran a 15 Head Baradan Embroidery machine ( seven needles per head ).
This Behemoth was 25 foot long and 3 foot wide and was Computer controlled . The nylon material that I embroidered on , would build up static electricity to the point , that during the winter months here in Montana ( low humidity ) the static electricity took out 3 hard drives on the Computer .
We tried anti-static mats, anti-static aerosol sprays . . . we tried the tethered connection from your wrist to the machine . We finally solved Our problem with a Humidifier .
Static Electricity isn't a friend ;-)
Stephen
buying things that make professional electronic engineers laugh out loud.
who brought us the plague of switching power supplies and RF noise pollution? Or the compressed signals on contemporary CDs?
HEy Al,
I would also add the RCA connection, SPDIF, HDMI from an audio and installation standpoint, and hum (since it seems that there is no grounding standard and some companies don't ground their gear properly).
There would be no RF of any nature except whistlers without professional electronics engineers. Or home audio equipment. Or TV. Or amplified music.
Or talkies. Or computers. Or long distance telephones. Or adaptive fuel injection and anti-lock brakes. Or most aids to navigation. Or talkative toys.
Definitely a mixed bag, but one case of clear innocence is the highly compressed CD. That's a different breed of engineer more closely related to the ones who drive their trains through red lights while text messaging on their cell phones...
Rick
That sounds familiar. When I bought HexFreds to replace some stock diodes in a tube preamp, the guys at a Motorola shop roared. 'Won't make a bit of difference because DC is DC and I've been in the business for xx years.' When I went back to buy more, they had a field day! They were told something like 'Why would I waste money to buy them and time to solder them in, if it didn't sound better?'
Now will I try these cable elevators? ....it's really hard to say. Shrug.
Well these cable elevators are more plausible than most of Machina Dynamica's junk. But I doubt they would do any better (if anything)than using a wooden block or some cups to raise the cables off the floor.
Oh boy, this a big subject....let's just say I don't let anyone decide for me regardless of their education. And some of things I've heard out of engineers mouths has been quite laughable. As usual your results may vary...
ET
You got that right! My buddy has been an electronic engineer in the audio business for more than 25yrs, when I show him this stuff, he just shakes his head.
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