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In Reply to: RE: Tube Power - I had no idea posted by catbert242000@yahoo.com on July 01, 2021 at 11:02:49
Welcome aboard.
I 'started' with 300B based amps with about 8 watts, and was quite content. But am now listening through the 211 tube - lost some of that mid range 'magic', but gained some low freq resolution and oomph on the same pair of relatively efficient speakers.
Follow Ups:
Much more expensive to build a good one, but it can compete with the 300B mids with the right output transformers and power supply.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
So far am totally enjoying 211 as well. I don't know much about specifics on the power tranny and supply, do not possess such knowledge. But going from 300B to 211, it was a totally different listening experience - the driver is a 300B also.
Any experience with the 845 tube compared to the 211?
It's very difficult to compare these tubes because they can't simply be substituted for each other. And of course, the various amplifiers all use different support components. Even if the amps were otherwise the same, and even if the various systems I've heard used the same preamps, speakers, etc., my listening experiences have been months or years apart. Acoustic memory simply isn't good enough for drawing conclusions.
All that aside, I have gradually grown to favor the 211. I can't point to any great sonic distinction between these two types to support that, but in my opinion, the 211 simply does everything slightly better. One significant technical distinction between the 845 and the 211 has to do with their inherent electrical characteristics. The 845 exhibits a lower amplification factor and thus requires a larger grid swing. For this reason, some people will say it's more difficult to drive. However, the 845 also exhibits a much higher standing grid bias in Class A than the 211, and that ultimately results in greater output power at the point just below grid current. This is evident in the data sheets of the two tubes. While the 845 can output more than 20W with 1,000V on the anode, the 211 is limited to 12W.
For my purpose (and in consideration of the sensitivity of my speakers), 12W simply isn't worth all the trouble and expense necessary to build a stereo amplifier around the 211. There's a solution, but it requires driving the 211 into Class A2. That's a much more complex undertaking than driving the 845 to its maximum output of 20W, a level that I do consider satisfactory and which undoubtedly accounts for its greater popularity. At any rate, this is the reason I have always maintained that the 211 is more difficult to drive.
In the end, I designed my own 211 amps with a totem pole running at more than +500V to achieve the necessary voltage swing. That's followed by a choke loaded, low-Z cathode follower that seamlessly drives the 211 into A2. As with any other 211/845 amplifier, mine operate in pure Class A up to the limit of grid current. Maximum output power is approximately 30W, and this capability comes at no sonic penalty that I can discern.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
Awesome, thanks Triode for the explanation and information. I wish I knew a little more about circuits and their design, as a lot of the specifics you wrote are over my head. Trying to read up on and understand as much as I could, as I've always been a fan of SETs. How is that Cary is able to extract 50+ watts from the 845/211 tubes in Class A2?
Coming from 300B amps and their sound, all I can comment on is the sound after hearing the 211's. I was afraid I would miss the 300B but was very pleasantly surprised.
NOS 211's are still relatively cheap, especially compared to NOS 845's as you are aware.
I don't know how Cary arrives at their numbers. In my experience with 10K output transformers, 30W is the approximate A2 limit when the tube is biased near it's maximum rating. Mine are set at 80 mA with 1,050V on the anode. In addition to being on the edge of the tube's dissipation rating, this is also the maximum current rating of the transformers I'm using. :)
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
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