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Consonance M400-s
These monos are new to me, NOS units, that I am coming up on a month of enjoying. I have had tube gear in the past but never did much with it other than use and enjoy. Never worried about design and tube rolling aspects. Older now, I am settled on a tube based system for the foreseeable future and have become curious on the design of these amps, especially the small tubes. The factory 6922, 12au7 and EL34 tubes are all EH. 40 wpc in UL and 22 wpc in triode. The quote from a review below gives me the basic flow, if the reviewer is correct in his assessment.
"The monoblocks are push-pull Class AB mono power amps with little global feedback. The signal goes first to the 6922 dual triode acting as the input stage, then to the ECC82 dual triode acting as the drive stage. The ECC82 drives the big EL34 output tubes - one matched pair per channel. The EL34s are transformer-coupled to the load, which in this case is the speaker."
Based on his description of the amps I am curious as to what you tube amp gurus feel to be the best place (position) to start in regards to the small tubes? I have the stock EH set aside and currently running a matched quad of Tung-Sol EL34B. Should I focus on one position or both in sort of a tandem function driving the output pairs? What little knowledge I have on tube amps steers me towards the input 6922 being the difference maker and the driver 12au7 making less difference when it comes to dropping some funds on upgrade tubes. Am I close or way off base here?
Follow Ups:
I have no specific tube in mind, but I agree that the 6922 would be a good place to look for solid improvement. I have been happy with the T-S EL-34 in my PrimaLuna amp-they were a clear improvement on the stock sino tubes, and are probably one of the top tubes available in that type.
The 6922 looks like the best candidate for rolling in the front-end.
May I suggest the JJ gold-pin 6922? They're, IMO, WAY better than those Ruskie EH's, which to me always reminded me of the sound of fingernails on a chalkboard.
You may also wish to try the JJ gold-pin ECC82.
Are you looking for tubes that are more quiet than the tubes that are in there now, or tubes with better tone/sonic qualities? It looks like your speakers are not super high efficiency, so ambient noise may not even come into play. Any noise in the first tube will be amplified down the chain however and this can be a consideration that is dependent on the gain architecture of the entire system.
If you're looking at my system profile here it does not reflect what is in play anymore. I need to update my system lol. Medium efficiency in use now at 88-89 dB but they are highly articulate and built by a tube oriented company so the load is pretty reasonable. I am not picking up any real noise issues, at least with the stock EH driver tubes. Clean 20 amp dedicated circuits for the audio system in that room. Good wiring job by me and good grade outlets at the end so it's very clean and quiet from that aspect.
I am hearing a very well done sound stage with good timbre, tone and staging. The rub is that I assume there's more of this goodness to be extracted with better input and driver tubes.
Pic of current set up until I have time to update my profile here.
Nt
the Vandy 1Ci departed from here about two years ago. Great speaker at it's price point and was a fun speaker to listen to.
I go to a decent amount of live concerts, or did before COVID anyway, in 40 years have never heard that type of pinpoint imaging that I hear in some compatriots systems. No criticism if you want it, but it is not for me and is an artifact of the replay system unrelated to the live music experience, IMHO.
Duplicate post by me in error.
Edits: 06/20/21
" No criticism if you want it, but it is not for me and is an artifact of the replay system unrelated to the live music experience, IMHO."
- On a grand scale I agree that it should not detract from the musical performance if the imaging is not there. After all it really is about the music. What I can say from my experiences as a musician and performer, when I am on stage playing I hear the sonic soundscape of the group. Whether it is orchestral or jazz groups the stage has its boundaries and we are in our space with either no elbow room or great elbow room. That specificity is easy for us to hear from up there. That auditory info does not always translate to the audiences seat because of the venue. I have been to performances where the hall is mediocre so the sound is just a wall with no inner detailing of separation or space. Other halls do relay what I know it sounds like from the stage and this adds to my overall enjoyment. Both types of live performances are good for the mind and soul because it is about the music, but I am doubly thrilled when it is in line with the later statement of mine.
If you attend amplified concerts then it is all bets off for any real form of imaging unless the band and sound crew want you to hear some of it. Pat Metheny is a prime example. If you sit in Verizon Hall at the Kimmel Center anywhere in the orchestra seating rows M to Z for an acoustic performance you will hear good to excellent staging and imaging. The smaller the group the more pinpoint it gets. The acoustics of this hall in my opinion are outstanding and offer the added dimension that is lacking in many other venues.
Maybe it is just me because I am a musician as well as an audiophile that I hear a different perspective in performances and venues than other folks might. The added perspective of being on both sides of the trumpet bell seems to be the force that makes me enjoy imaging and soundstage so much that I don't enjoy a system lacking in it as much as I do enjoy one that excels at it. Not saying the music means less but rather it means more when I hear a system recreate a palpable soundscape that my brain recognizes as real.
I am by no means dismissing anyone else's opinions at all - just offering up my feelings and perspective.
Nt
NT
Couldn't agree more. I've never heard anyone rave about "pinpoint imaging" after attending a concert. Way on the back burner of my priority list as well.
JAS Orior speakers use Accuton bass and a twin ribbon tweeter. Amazing monitors in my book. I've had several dozen speakers in my time and these are up there with some elite company in the imaging and accuracy department.
Edits: 06/17/21
Thank you for the suggestions. This is the sort of thing I want to add to a list of upgrade tubes and then do a cost analysis. I certainly do not mind spending on the system but do not want to waste good funds on a tube position that does little or nothing to the signal in a positive meaningful way. The output change was dead obvious to me and I have always had a keen ear as a musician.
I second Amadeus-
the 6922 could be significant -
But if you like the sound as it is today ....
Keep what you have -
You should have a set of back-up tubes, and possibly try an additional pair of the 6922/6DJ8s
My personal favorite for the EL-34 are the Siemens/RTV -
but those have been out of production for MANY years...
Happy Listening
Thank you.
I do like the sound I have going on currently. It checks almost all the boxes in my book. What I am wondering about are the changes that would be displayed with better quality 6922 and 12au7. I read tube descriptions that refer to timbre, imaging, spatial cues etc. that pique my interest in seeing where I can take this pair now that I am developing a reference point.
Spares are definitely where I am headed in the process and your suggestion is duly noted and added to search tab to keep an eye out for.
The design has as much to do with the final sound as the tubes themselves. Tubes inside a global negative feedback loop have less impact on the final sound as those tubes that are outside the loop.
Often the first tube at the input has a lot of impact if it is outside the loop.
Personally as I get older my hearing is deteriorating and I do not notice as much changing tubes.
You may want to go to tubebooks dot org and download the book by Robert Tomer "Getting the most out of vacuum tubes" for starters.
Tubes are sensitive to changing mains voltage levels - make sure that the filaments are heated close to the manufacturers recommendations, Chinese amps are sometimes way off which have you spending lots of money on replacing tubes.
Thank you for your response. I will definitely look into the eBook you suggested. Sounds like a good launching point for me to get acquainted.Bias test and set on these amps is pretty simple for me and have done the stock 34s as well as the upgraded 34s in now. Manual states .40 and that is where I dialed both sets into.
I assume changing out the 6922 or12au7 would mandate a bias check on output tubes?
Edits: 06/24/21
The bias on the output tubes should be independent of the small tubes.Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 06/17/21
Thanks, I was not sure if the 12au7 driver tubes would change the drive of the output tubes. I honestly have a bit to learn when it comes to tube amplification and will listen to you all and read up as well.
Only if the 12au7s are direct coupled to the output tubes.
Do you have a schematic?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Tre, I do not have a schematic and the owners manual is fair at best with minimal description on typology. This is pretty much why I came here to post for help. I came up short on really good technical info that could lead me in the direction of what type of build these are based on and how to pursue the ringing out of performance possibilities. I got them on a great deal new old stock and have owned other Opera / Consonance gear before and recently acquired an M100+ integrated to play with. These monos are very nice sounding out of the gate for what I paid and with my current gear.
Post detailed pictures of the underside with the bottom off.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
@Tre'
Hope these show enough to give some indications.
The 12au7 is for sure the driver stage. It is cap coupled to the grids of the output tubes. The bias setting on the output tubes will not change when you change the 12au7 or the 6922.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Thank you for asking me to do this and for your response back! I truly appreciate the time and effort in helping me out..
Will give that a go this weekend and post up the innards. Thank you!
I would do it now but I am in DEEP currently listening to my system... 9:47 pm EST and need this session to erase the stress of the day. Thank god music is my drug of choice and works like a champ for me.
Edits: 06/18/21
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