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In Reply to: Re: Geez Dan! posted by Dan B. on December 01, 1999 at 19:36:01:
I also wish things here didn't get so ugly so quickly either. I have to believe if we were all sitting together, sipping our favorite libation, we would not act this way. I think it is very hard on line to make any reasonable judgements about the people with whom we are dealing. However, I suspect most of us would be more personable, face-to-face. Perhaps this is wishful thinking on my part.
Rick,I think you (and Dan) are missing something in this. Speaking as the latest combatant, things did not get ugly quickly. Rather, I watched (and sometimes seethed) over time until, for me, something needed to be said. Part of this build up came from private e-mails from regular posters who concurred with my observations.
> > I think it is very hard on line to make any reasonable judgements about the people with whom we are dealing. < <
If this is true, then please refrain from judging me or others whose nature it is to argue a point with more force than you would choose. Because this is a hi-fi discussion group does not render it immune from human emotion.
With respect to these sorts of exchanges being more personable "in person". Yes and no. I assure you the two points that set me off this week would have come to a head much more quickly in person. My Bullshit-o-meter is far more sensitive when I have the facial expressions and body language to go with the words. What you read here is rather reserved on my part.
I am distrustful of those who claim never to be angry, claim that they never have fights with spouses and friends. Those folks are explosions wainting to be detonated.
Phil:My post was not directed specifically towards this thread, just interactions in general here and elsewhere on audio boards.
I was not making any judgements, and I definately use "we" because I am not immune from this sort of thing either.
As to your implication about me not being emotionally expressive . . . well, that is just funny.
nowhere did I say you weren't emotionally expressive. My memory, despit age, ain't that short :-). Just a generalization, much like yours.
Phil:I have learned not to make any assumptions about memory with old codgers like us.
I just think this forum would be more inviting to more people, and more useful if differences and disagreements were less acrimoniously expressed. The fact that my tastes might differ from yours, doesn't mean that either of us is intellectually or morally deficient. It simply means we do not agree. Nor is there any reason why we should.
I worry that less assertive residents avoid posting, because they fear reprisal at a personal level. I don't think this serves anyone well.
Here's what I think. I bet your system is wonderful. I know mine is. They are undoubtably different in many ways. Yours suits you. Mine suits me. I would like to hear yours. I wonder if you are similarly inclined.
However, I think dismissive comments like " . . . all X is crap." serves no one well.
actually, Rick, I am. What I choose for me does not exclude listening to what others have chosen. Every (well, most ;-)) carefully chosen system where attention has been paid to details like room and set-up (do I need more qualifiers or is that enough?) will have its strengths. If I were to focus solely on that which I feel has come to suit me, my learning in this hobby would effectively stop.While I agree that comments like "..X is crap" aren't helpful (and, unfortunately, I have been guilty of same), I do feel rather strongly that some lines are or have become rip-offs. I number Wilson Audio at the top of the list. If Wilson speakers actually made music, I would excuse their obscene price tag, but the fact that none I have heard (SLAMMs, WATT/Puppy, WITT II, CUBBs) do is inexcusable. I feel the same way about Levinson. OTOH, I have always found Nelson Pass' designs by far the most enjoyable SS amps to listen to, and I'm dying to hear the 47 Labs Gaincard.
On the tube side, I think ARC has lost the way, by and large, though their more modest tube products (LS-8, PH-3) are at least not rip-offs and do produce music. But they are a far cry from the SP-3, Sp-6, Classic 60 days.
Believe it or not, I really want to hear (and like) SACD. It's just at this stage of the game there's no point (to me) in gettin' all het up about it. I believe the future of digitized music is downloads to SS storage devices, so any new format has to be viewed as an interim format.
> > I worry that less assertive residents avoid posting, because they fear reprisal at a personal level. I don't think this serves anyone well. < <
I can't argue with this, but I have a somewhat different view of what constitutes personal. With the exception of obvious poseurs like "Andrew Scott" and the Brentworth controversy, I don't bare my fangs toward the newly on board. And when someone sets themselves up as a "guru" with only hot air for support, well... I can't be all that intimidating. I receive an average of 2 to 3 private e-mails a day asking my opinions which, I always caution, are worth exactly what they paid for it.
Gee Phil . . .I was picking your canines out of my ass for about a week there :-)
My observations are not directed specifically at you, or anyone else. However, as you say, you have a great deal of sway here.
I think the only way we avoid moderation (its their baby, after all) is through practicing moderation ourselves.
For me, although I would not purchase Wilson or even CJ for my own use, I certainly believe that many people do and will, and will enjoy this equipment enormously, not because they "don't know any better", but because it fits whatever the "absolute" sound is they carry around in their heads.
You and I have both been at this a long time, and hardly represent the average audiophile. I suspect we both know "exactly" how we want things to sound. However, this does not mean we are right, it's just our sensibilities, not some absolute truth.
I make shake my head at someone who says they can experience audio heaven with a system that has little audible output below 40 cycles, but I believe its true for them.
More to the point in this discussion, I think disagreeing, and mistreating each other out of disagreement are not the same thing.
when I say i consider that Wilson is a rip-off, it's not meant to imply those who buy it don't know any better. That may be true on occasion, but those who have the sheckels and pony up to David's bar are getting what they want - either the Wilson sound or status, Whichever, if the buyer deems it's worth the price of entry, so be it. But to me, they continue to be vastly overpriced for what they are and distinctly amusical. That's a nice way of saying rip-off.To your final point, there is a difference between mistreating the innocent and unmasking the poseur or calling out a hypocrite.
phonies like "Andrew Scott" materialize from nowhere seeking to post and then control their threads. As soon as I voiced suspicions, he jumped all over me. I've observed the same reactions from "Excellent" Charles, who then whines and complains and slithers away.I do like to try to keep it at the level of issuing a challenge rather than flaming or insulting, but the line is easy to cross in a moment of emotional reaction.
Dave
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