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In Reply to: RE: Absolute level of CD during play posted by geoffkait on September 10, 2023 at 11:16:37
Again, who said anything about perfect or forever?
" I realized something was very wrong with CD technology a long long time ago."
Most regular folks aren't able to separate the limits of the medium from all of the steps and stages involved making and mastering a recording to CD, nor were most present at the time of the recording and have anything like knowledge to go on.
That makes a judgement of the medium itself vs content that "something was very wrong" based on an imagined faithfulness of a recording a pretty big leap.
Follow Ups:
Oh, dear, my disparaging remarks regarding CD transports have fallen on deaf ears. CDs themselves are fine.
Edits: 09/10/23 09/10/23 09/10/23 09/10/23
IF you have ever heard a single recording on CD that was good, that establishes the CD digital medium is capable of it.
The question is, how much if what you hear positive and negative is the art of recording, the technical limitations of the various elements in the chain. Unless it's a 2 mic live recording, it is an in studio contrived stereo image and unless you were there, a person is limited to a judgement about how "real" it sounds with no knowledge of what it actually sounded like. This is where doing your own recording can be enlightening.
Most of your comments reflect a "black and white" binary like view when in my experience engineering is mostly shades of grey and the concept of "perfect" is only a goal.
Perfect here could be what goes in is exactly the same as what comes out.
Euphonic coloration is not perfection even though pleasing with music (which is harmonic)
You're making it unnecessarily complicated. My proposition is very simple - all things being equal the absolute level of the CD affects the sound. Obviously many other things affect the sound too. Hold all other variables constant while changing one variable at a time.
Edits: 09/11/23 09/11/23 09/11/23
Good thought, so with your CD player, how much can you lift one side without hearing a change. A sheet of paper, a business card, a thin magazine??
Now, have a friend change the spacing while you face away and at what thickness can you hear it now?
When you said " I realized something was very wrong with CD technology a long long time ago. " is this the show stopper flaw you were speaking of?
Somewhere i have an old Sony disc-man that let you play a disc while you were jogging or whatever (i was more whatever).
It was able to do that because it had an especially agile head which could adjust focus very quickly AND it had a good size buffer (a guess would be maybe 2K samples) and variable speed drive so that the rate coming in could have short interruptions or bursts while a separate clock'd output reads to the next stage to the output.
Modern home units don't have to have that level of immunity but if they don't it isn't because they couldn't. Many home CD players are also DVD and or Blue ray players, the precision required to read those tiny pits is much greater than CD and the electronics much faster. Would the same flaw be present there or is it the disc itself?
Again, you're making it way too complicated. Look, all you have to do is make sure the disc is absolutely level while spinning. It's actually the same idea as putting lead weights around the rim of a car wheel to make it rotate more smoothly, I.e., dynamic stability, since most CDs are out of round, which makes then dynamically unstable, especially when not level. Of course, in a perfect work you want to use the disc trimmer to put the CD in round AND my black 3M tape method for stabilizing the disc against small perturbations. But since we don't have the (very expensive) disc trimmer we do the best we can, with Green Pens, Purple Pens, whatever we can, no? Otherwise one lives with the sound you've got.I have pointed out many flaws in the CD playback system. Have you been napping? You also asked me if I'm open to experimentation? You still haven't figured out where I'm coming from. You act like this is your first rodeo sometimes.
NOTE No one has yet offered the solution how to ensure the disc is absolutely level during play. If it was easy everyone could do it.
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Not too chicken to change
Edits: 09/14/23 09/14/23 09/14/23 09/14/23 09/14/23
Inquiring minds want to know
Since the top of the player/transport is not uniformly level and the tray may not be level with the top of the chassis, you must find a reliable way to ensure the disc is level during play. One way is to place a bubble level on top of the CD that's sitting in the tray with the tray ejected. Then hope the CD is the same level when it's inserted into the player. The balance/stabilizing of the CD is another issue, I recommend the 3M Super 88 tape to stabilize the CD. If it's a top loader just place the bubble level on the CD sitting in the tray.
Edits: 10/07/23
Nt
When placing bubble level on top of the CD sitting on the tray make sure the weight of the bubble level doesn't force the disc over to one side a little bit. Maybe measure the level of the tray only.
I don't think it can ever be perfectly level while playing.
I think the transport is suspended. I think a spinning motor applies torque that will tilt the suspended transport one way or the other. The torque will increase and decrease depending on the RPM of the motor and that is always changing. So the tilt will always be changing.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
In my tests damping the micro-vibration of the CD laser-reader with a couple of Marigo Audio's 3mm green dots did more to improve CD ripping sound quality than all attempts at fine-tuning CD player unit/ tray balance.
one is vertical, the other horizontal.
Let us see if he edits one more time
Balance and level are two different things.
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